Setting up Shop Questions - from an NZ learner

Discussion in 'The Shop' started by joco-nz, Aug 1, 2016.

Help Support HMEM by donating:

  1. Jul 31, 2017 #561

    joco-nz

    joco-nz

    joco-nz

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2016
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    171
    Thanks fuddy699. I'm going to keep this as the general workshop thread as it seems a reasonable place to isolate my ramblings. Then do specific projects in their own thread, like I did for the grinder rest.

    Cheers,
    J.
     
  2. Jul 31, 2017 #562

    rodw

    rodw

    rodw

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,132
    Likes Received:
    334
    Yes, it is a great thread. Just looking at the stats. 80,000 posts since last year and my shed thread started in 2013 is at 115,000 so I think James will knock me off my perch pretty soon! There's only so much you can do in a mini shed

    http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=19885

    I think its pretty amazing to see how fast James has progressed with his welding.....
     
  3. Jul 31, 2017 #563

    DJP

    DJP

    DJP

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2012
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    114
    I have a feeling that James has some hidden talent from the past that makes welding his new easy hobby. The ramp up of skill is impressive as is hand eye coordination. I'll bet that he is also a master at calligraphy or something like that.

    It helps to have time and a budget for machines too.

    Congrats James on an impressive forum thread.
     
  4. Aug 1, 2017 #564

    joco-nz

    joco-nz

    joco-nz

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2016
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    171
    Gents - thanks for the kind comments and for putting up with my attempts at metal work.

    After getting the lathe mobile I was able to also get it under the block and chain and remove it from the stand. The intent being to continue my checks of the setup in the quest of getting a well tuned lathe capable of turning very parallel work. Something it is not doing to the level I would like.

    So first off lathe removed. Nothing special here but a bit of gratuitous "block and chain". :rolleyes:

    [​IMG]

    After that the drip tray was removed and so were the adjustable feet. Things felt pretty dang flat. There was a very very minor amount of movement in the stand and just putting a single playing card (an Ace of Spades from memory) under any leg made things worse. Like I said, pretty flat. Anyway from here I started assessing how flat things were across the top struts that the lathe is actually bolted to. I dont have a super accurate engineers level so this is done using a long level I had from a DIY work around the house.

    Top view of the lathe stand for reference to help visualise the different dimensions being assessed with the level.
    [​IMG]


    Each the of the different checks:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Having looked as these checks and I would say that the stand is actually pretty dang level. Nothing that a small amount of shiming under the lathe feet would solve at any rate. On the plus side my welding and fabrication was clearly better than I thought as I was convinced there was a bad twist somewhere.

    The next problem to investigate is how the chip tray is sitting. The suspicion is that the amount the cross supports are raised is not quite enough to esnure that the drip tray is not actiing a bit like a spring. This isn't an issue at the Head Stock end but given the Tail Stock is much closer to the edge and therefore the spring effect I think that might be having an alignment impact. Results of the investigation in the next post.

    Cheers,
    J.
     
  5. Aug 1, 2017 #565

    goldstar31

    goldstar31

    goldstar31

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,192
    Likes Received:
    492
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Haggis Breeder
    Location:
    Twixt Tyne and Tees
    James, James??? Who and what is going on?

    What you have forgotten is that a lathe can run accurately bouncing about on the briny-- and still turn accurately.

    Beware of old wives and whatever.

    What you need is a lathe and not a stand that is something called 'not in twist' Essentially, you need to fix your lathe on a FIRM base and then play about with 'bubbles'

    At present I'm sitting at my Sieg c4 which isn't even bolted down and it's on my old office desk with a composition wood top.

    It doesn't matter a hoot if it is sloping but it does matter to ensure that the lathe is not twisted.

    Does this help?

    Norm
     
  6. Aug 1, 2017 #566

    joco-nz

    joco-nz

    joco-nz

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2016
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    171
    Norm - yup understand and not ignoring the lathe part of the equation. I tried tuning it on the stand and could not for the life of me get to to run really true. So I'm starting from the ground up.

    I am also taking the opportunity to fix some things I am not entirely happy with. I want to get things properly sealed for flood coolant and things were not sealed from initial mounting. I also wanted to fix the drip tray which is not sitting correctly.

    So while, as you noted, they probably won't be the main cause or even any cause they won't be helping. Just removing possible variables and fixing some stuff I'm not thrilled with. Then it will be back to focusing all the attention on the lathe.

    Cheers,
    J.
     
  7. Aug 1, 2017 #567

    goldstar31

    goldstar31

    goldstar31

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,192
    Likes Received:
    492
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Haggis Breeder
    Location:
    Twixt Tyne and Tees
    So if you want your drip tray to drain away-- and not swill about, your trays has to tilt.

    If you want to have your lathe to be level in all planes, you have to find some means of holding the lathe level whilst keeping the suds from staying in the tray.

    My alternatives are to either shim or to use jacking screws between the tray and the lathe feet. You may have to put override the wheels and put in jacks. I seem to recall that you did this somewhere in the past-- but I forget!

    Cheers

    Norm
     
  8. Aug 1, 2017 #568

    joco-nz

    joco-nz

    joco-nz

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2016
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    171
    The wheels are a temporary fixture. Once used they completely unbolt and get put away for a rainy day. I do have screw levelling feet on the stand which allows dealing with some variation in the floor. I'm not sure how well this lathe will react to jacking screws given that would mean the feet will have very small support points at the head stock end.

    This pic shows the headstock foot. As you can see it's doesn't feel very meaty for putting all the headstock weight on two jacking screws.

    I think shims will be the better path and as you have identified they will be between the drip tray and the lathe feet. The "where will the coolant run to" question is still open and I need to ponder it. I have some half formed ideas to work through. Fortunately I get a little time each day on the train to consider these things before hitting the workshop at home.

    [​IMG]

    Cheers,
    J.
     
    goldstar31 likes this.
  9. Aug 1, 2017 #569

    goldstar31

    goldstar31

    goldstar31

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,192
    Likes Received:
    492
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Haggis Breeder
    Location:
    Twixt Tyne and Tees
    You are doing well.
    So I'm pleased

    Regards
    N
     
  10. Aug 6, 2017 #570

    joco-nz

    joco-nz

    joco-nz

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2016
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    171
    After taking the lathe off the stand and doing some checks I came to the conclusion I wanted to allow a more easy flood coolant setup. Something where I wasn't going to end up having to use sealants under the lathe feet to stop leaks. The answer was a tray which sat under the lathes mounting points.

    Concept design:
    [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IN6Oby7aDg[/ame]

    Tray built and stitch welded.
    [​IMG]

    Put in place and help with clamps.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Next will be to seal all the seams and put mounting tabs on the lathe.

    Cheers,
    J
     
  11. Aug 6, 2017 #571

    nautilus29

    nautilus29

    nautilus29

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2017
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    11
    Nice job so far. I wish I could weld like that! It would be nice to have the chip tray at standing level like that. I have to bend over to the floor to clean out my trays at work, and that gets old fast. Only thing I'm noticing is the tray is pretty shallow and certain types of chips like to ball up, this may make it hard to pull out at times. You can probably just pull those chips out through the top if needed though.
     
  12. Aug 6, 2017 #572

    joco-nz

    joco-nz

    joco-nz

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2016
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    171
    Yeah those can be a pain. But with the mounts in place there is lots of room to reach in (with gloves) and get that stuff out.
     
  13. Aug 6, 2017 #573

    rodw

    rodw

    rodw

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,132
    Likes Received:
    334
    Looks good James. A mate with far more experience than me reckons anytime he's seen coolant containers that depend on sealant, they leak. I think you will need to weld it out fully.
     
  14. Aug 6, 2017 #574

    bazmak

    bazmak

    bazmak

    BAZMAK HMEM Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,170
    Likes Received:
    1,196
    Your quite correct that the lathe does not need to be level to work correctly
    But the important thing is as stated that the lathe has no twist
    The easiest way to check for twist is to level in all directions Mainly on
    the diagonals.I have leveled a couple of 3 piece slate bed pool tables
    Started with a std builders level as you but had to finish with a more
    accurate engineers level.Dont what effect a slight twist has on the accuracy of the lathe,but for most model engineers i dont think its too critical
     
  15. Aug 6, 2017 #575

    joco-nz

    joco-nz

    joco-nz

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2016
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    171
    Rod - the plan was to use that marine grade stuff that you used on your lathe feet. I can weld it out fully, not a lot of work but thought that Sika 291 marine sealant would do the business.

    Cheers,
    J.
     
  16. Aug 7, 2017 #576

    bazmak

    bazmak

    bazmak

    BAZMAK HMEM Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,170
    Likes Received:
    1,196
    If you have tig or mig then put on a full sealing weld.Clamp some heavy section to the sides and keep distortin to a minimum. Weld about 5omm then leave a gap of 150mm then repeat.After a circuit repeat again.If you can get disrortion to centre to lift it slightly then this helps coolant flow
     
  17. Aug 7, 2017 #577

    joco-nz

    joco-nz

    joco-nz

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2016
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    171
    Thanks - looks like I'm going to be welding bit. :thumbup:

    Already have the centre lifting on one half and the other half dipped. So there is a natural pooling point. I'll see if that stays after TIG welding all the way around. For speed/ease I think lay-wire method will be the way to go. No need to try and stack-o-dimes this, I'm not trying to be cute here just effective.

    Cheers,
    J.
     
  18. Aug 7, 2017 #578

    goldstar31

    goldstar31

    goldstar31

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,192
    Likes Received:
    492
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Haggis Breeder
    Location:
    Twixt Tyne and Tees
    A bit of 'Theoretical Engineering' here but this is in old parlance 'Oil Drumming'. The cure was often a wet plug of asbestos( shock horror) and spotting with an oxy/acetylene torch. Again, 30 odd years ago, I would have had a go with either a plug of wet newspaper or a shrinking hammer and dolly.

    Tig was coming in and my experience was very limited. However, my thoughts are to put a pool weld on the middle of stretched sheet and see if it shrinks.

    On Saturday night, one of my old contemporaries had bought 'another Mig' because he was fed up changing point 6 to point 8 and vice versa and I was prattling on about firing mig wire through two sheets of body panel instead of plug welding with a notched mig gas shroud.

    Again, somebody here was prattling about theoretical Spitfires and elliptical wings were made -though I didn't tell them- with hammers and dollies in true blacksmithing tradition. One hammers on the wrong side!!!

    Back to intravenous coffee

    Cheers


    N
     
  19. Aug 7, 2017 #579

    bazmak

    bazmak

    bazmak

    BAZMAK HMEM Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,170
    Likes Received:
    1,196
    Brings back memories Norm, with a bulge i used to heat the centre
    with oxy and cool down with a wet rag working from the outside in
    Usually did the trick
     
    goldstar31 likes this.
  20. Aug 7, 2017 #580

    joco-nz

    joco-nz

    joco-nz

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2016
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    171
    Gents - did some googling and found references to "Oil Canning" and based on the videos it seems fit the description perfectly. I can use the TIG like an electric oxy/acet torch and do some some spot heating and rapid cooling with a tight wade of wet newspaper.

    I found someone doing the approach using a MAMP torch, would that work or is the heat injection too slow and too likely to spread too far? From what I could see from the guys using a real torch they get a very small red hot spot.

    Cheers,
    J.
     

Share This Page