Rod's Aussie Shed

Help Support HMEM:

rodw

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Messages
1,143
Reaction score
340
Hey Rod, maybe they will sell you a few 12" lengths before they cut them up :)

Just A thought...

Regards, RossG.
Thanks Ross, my eyeometer was not calibrated well last night. I checked this morning with a tape measure and the drawbar is 12" long so I will give Hobby Mechanics a call and see if I can grab some over the weekend sometime as his suburb is almost next door.
 

rodw

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Messages
1,143
Reaction score
340
I did not bother with the hex bar in the end, I came up with a better idea



I have this nice barely used 10mm square toolpost spanner that came with the lathe which courtesy of a QCTP is surplus to requirements.

I had to bore the cap out so the spanner would fit but this is what I came up with



The milling turned out to be pretty easy. I held it in the vice horizontally and worked out how much I had to mill off each side and crept up on it checking the width of the remaining steel. Once I got to the magic number, I locked it all off and then did the other three sides in one pass, aligning the part with a set square held against the milling table. I ended up pushing the part square against the vice and gripping it on the smaller flange which ended up with a few bruises as a result, but I am the only one who will see them!

The Seig uses a high tensile 8.8 grade allen head bolt secured by a pin and I copied the original design which is more complex than it needs to be



I figured if I stuffed up milling the square head, I could use the Seig technique.

Now there is only one problem!



I have never cut a thread on a lathe before! I went down to Hare and Forbes to buy a threading kit and had a few practice goes before I tackled this job and had no luck at all. I might get a chance tomorrow to have another go after a bit more research.

I had trouble with the chasing dial which I did not think was working but it seems to be now. I did quick bit of research and realise now I should have been using the reverse switch rather than the gearbox so I might give it another go on some scrap tomorrow before having a go for real on a part with quite a few hours invested in it.

The last time I made a M12 drawbar, I tried to use a die to cut the thread but I ended bending the drawbar a tad so I want to use the lathe for this thread.

Any metric threading tips are welcomed (my lathe has a metric lead screw)!
 

trumpy81

Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
219
Reaction score
52
Thanks Trumpy,the last one I made from hex I got from Minitech, this time I need a longer piece. Thanks for the Darra source, a length would not be out of the question as it is handy to have, the other local source is Hobby Mechanics which is also only 12" long, see http://www.hobbymechanics.com.au/categories/Materials-/

they are at Sunnybank and offer a quick service if you order online.
Rod I have used Hobby Mechanics in the past, no problems. If you wanna grab a full length from Bohler, maybe we could go halves? It's not something that would go astray :)
 

trumpy81

Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
219
Reaction score
52
I have never cut a thread on a lathe before! I went down to Hare and Forbes to buy a threading kit and had a few practice goes before I tackled this job and had no luck at all. I might get a chance tomorrow to have another go after a bit more research.

I had trouble with the chasing dial which I did not think was working but it seems to be now. I did quick bit of research and realise now I should have been using the reverse switch rather than the gearbox so I might give it another go on some scrap tomorrow before having a go for real on a part with quite a few hours invested in it.

The last time I made a M12 drawbar, I tried to use a die to cut the thread but I ended bending the drawbar a tad so I want to use the lathe for this thread.

Any metric threading tips are welcomed (my lathe has a metric lead screw)!
Rod, some lathes have two gears on the threading dial, one for metric the other for imperial and some don't. I don't know if yours does or not?

When cutting the thread, set your compound slide to 29.5 degrees, some say you can plunge straight in but I like the 29.5 degree method, no particular reason, it's just the first method I heard/learned about. Make sure the cutting tool is set square to the bar, a fishtail gauge is best for that.

Try to cut 0.08 to 0.1mm on each pass, yes there will be a lot of passes, but it is the only way to do it and get a clean well formed thread.
 

rodw

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Messages
1,143
Reaction score
340
Rod I have used Hobby Mechanics in the past, no problems. If you wanna grab a full length from Bohler, maybe we could go halves? It's not something that would go astray :)
Not a bad idea Trumpy. I had a look at tthe PDF's on their web site, would 3/8" be OK with you? They don't seem to have much of a range of metric sizes. I can get a price and pick it up on my way home one afternoon as they are not far out of my way.

I think I will also get a length of 12mm rod to practice my threading on but ordinary mild steel from Metalcorp was what I had in mind. You can take half of that too if you are interested. I guess I could get the machining steel for this size too if that appeals to you more.
 

radial1951

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2011
Messages
84
Reaction score
37
Location
New South Wales
Hi Rod, just a couple of points re your thread.

Your undercut doesn't appear deep enough. That original drawbar seems to have a ROLLED thread so the minor dia is LESS than the shaft dia from which it is rolled. Also make your undercut wider to give more room to stop the tool before you run into the shoulder (!), and taper the end of the thread into the undercut. If you stop a bit short, you can pull the chuck over by hand to run the tool into the under cut. I have cut very short threads entirely by hand power up to a shoulder.
A screw-cutting tool CANNOT properly plunge straight in and cut at the point. You either swing the compound slide around to half the thread angle, less half a degree, like TRUMPY says (the EASIEST method by far) or you must move the tool along the correct amount with the compound slide with each cut etc TOO HARD!

You might be able to start with 0.1 cuts but not for very long. Cuts will need to be quite small, 0.02 down to 0.01 for the last few cuts. I hope you are using a HSS toolbit, NOT carbide... I have NEVER seen anyone cut a perfect first thread, so don't worry, be patient!

If you haven't already, you really should buy the South Bend book "HOW TO RUN A LATHE". It is the best for all the tricks on a lathe. Also "THE AMATEUR'S LATHE" By L.H.Sparey is excellent, with good projects to make along the way. Get both of them, you won't regret it! Any editions, my SB book is 1940's...

Just ask if you get stuck. Also, I'm sure the must be a quick screwcutting lesson somewhere here on the net.

Regards, RossG.
radial1951
 

rodw

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Messages
1,143
Reaction score
340
Geez guys, thanks for all of the advice. I think I have it pretty clear in my head now after a bit more research, I realise now I should have been killing power and selecting the reverse switch, not reversing with the gearbox. I don't think the chasing dial will be much use for metric threads after some interesting reading about chasing dials today. There are so many extra features on this Lathe compared with my old one together my head around. I get the compound angle thing and spent some time squaring everything today and found the compound zero mark is out 1 degree so my mark will be 30.5 degrees. I went to Bunnings today and grabbed a couple of M12 bolts to practice on as the only stuff I had here was 1/2" which needed turning down so swapping out the gears all of the time was not appealing!

Ross, how deep should the undercut be? I will check it, but I thought I set it to be half the pitch (eg. 1.75/2 = 0.875mm). With a bit more googling, I see what you mean about a wider undercut section, I will fix that and change belts to get to 60 RPM.

I do have some HSS tool steel and I had a go at grinding my first cutter and it seemed to work out OK when I was practicing. The holder needs to go into the toolpost on its side so I will eventually mill it down so it fits right way up ( once I can mount my facemill!). What I bought yesterday was insert tooling. I get that it likes faster cutting speeds.

Bazmak, let me get this one down pat first, but it is on the todo list. Shame the brass I have is not thick enough.

The other issue the drawbar project uncovered was some tailstock blues. The shaft ended up with a bit of a taper on it, but I was able to reset diameters at each end as in between was not critical. I have had a good look at the tailstock today and I reckon it was moving but I worked out how to lock it up a lot tighter now. Something somebody mentioned made me think the tailstock design on this lathe is a weak point as it does not sit on a dovetail, just on two horizontal rails. It is amazing when you dive into some stuff, the little things you find out about things you have no idea of!

Anyway, in the space of two weeks my new lathe has already adopted a well used look! :D
 

jack620

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
322
Reaction score
113
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Rod,
On some lathes 29.5 degrees will actually read 60.5 degrees on the compound markings. With the compound pointing at your guts you want to rotate it 29.5 degrees anti-clockwise.

I found these videos helpful the first time I cut a thread on the lathe:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y0MmvscBzg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y0MmvscBzg[/ame]

Chris
 

radial1951

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2011
Messages
84
Reaction score
37
Location
New South Wales
Ross, how deep should the undercut be? I will check it, but I thought I set it to be half the pitch (eg. 1.75/2 = 0.875mm). With a bit more googling, I see what you mean about a wider undercut section, I will fix that and change belts to get to 60 RPM.
Hi Rod, the nominal bolt thread depth of the M12 x 1.75 thread is 0.613 x Pitch. That means the undercut has to at least 1.07 deep i.e. 9.85 dia.

The charts say 9.6 minimum minor dia for the male thread (with the correct root radius). As your tool bit is likely to have a sharper point than having the correct radius, you need to allow a bit more clearance at the bottom of the undercut. Let's say you make the undercut 9.5 to 9.6 diameter, and the worst might be the tool will scratch the bottom of the undercut at the full thread depth. That shouldn't be a problem. I'd make the undercut 4 to 5mm wide to give yourself 2 - 3 revs of the chuck before the tool meets the shoulder !

BTW, if you didn't know already, the reason for the 29.5 deg is so the RHS of the tool will just barely shave the flank of the thread, rather than leaving lines on the flank from each cut of the tool (that's the theory). The tool is ground to exactly 60 deg, with a little back rake, and is set up dead square to the axis of the workpiece. A squirt from your oilcan will help tool life and finish.

Regards, RossG
radial1951
______________
 

dman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2012
Messages
220
Reaction score
36
I did not bother with the hex bar in the end, I came up with a better idea



I have this nice barely used 10mm square toolpost spanner that came with the lathe which courtesy of a QCTP is surplus to requirements.

I had to bore the cap out so the spanner would fit but this is what I came up with



The milling turned out to be pretty easy. I held it in the vice horizontally and worked out how much I had to mill off each side and crept up on it checking the width of the remaining steel. Once I got to the magic number, I locked it all off and then did the other three sides in one pass, aligning the part with a set square held against the milling table. I ended up pushing the part square against the vice and gripping it on the smaller flange which ended up with a few bruises as a result, but I am the only one who will see them!

The Seig uses a high tensile 8.8 grade allen head bolt secured by a pin and I copied the original design which is more complex than it needs to be



I figured if I stuffed up milling the square head, I could use the Seig technique.

Now there is only one problem!



I have never cut a thread on a lathe before! I went down to Hare and Forbes to buy a threading kit and had a few practice goes before I tackled this job and had no luck at all. I might get a chance tomorrow to have another go after a bit more research.

I had trouble with the chasing dial which I did not think was working but it seems to be now. I did quick bit of research and realise now I should have been using the reverse switch rather than the gearbox so I might give it another go on some scrap tomorrow before having a go for real on a part with quite a few hours invested in it.

The last time I made a M12 drawbar, I tried to use a die to cut the thread but I ended bending the drawbar a tad so I want to use the lathe for this thread.

Any metric threading tips are welcomed (my lathe has a metric lead screw)!
I never threaded with a metric leadscrew but I think I can help. what is the leads crew pitch and how many divisions are on the thread wheel?

the spindle reverse method is for imperial leadscrews on metric threads or vise versa. the tool should be disengaged from the thread during spindle reversal to prevent tool breakage but its the most foolproof way to single point when in doubt.

on most lathes you keep the gearbox engaged at all times and the half nut is used to disengage at the end of the thread. (unless you are reversing the spindle to feed back as mentioned earlier). hardinge made nice lathes that were an exception to this and used the feed reverse lever on any thread with no need for a thread wheel but unless you find one used its not worth mentioning.

compound rest should be at 29.5 deg to the right of perpendicular to the ways. (there is only one interpretation for this but still everyone I teach gets it wrong) this way the tool does the cutting on the leading edge which makes better chips and better chip removal than feeding with the cross slide. use the cross slide to retract the cutter for resetting the tool for the next pass. zero the wheel or use an indicator to return to position. if you overshoot pull it back and advance the slide again to take out backlash.

use the compound rest to dial in depth of cut and keep track of cut depth. measure the pitch diameter with a thread mic or the 3-wire method when you depth of cut is maybe 70% the thread pitch then take your finishing passes. if threads were fully triangular the ideal depth of cut would be 100% thread pitch if the direction of feed is parallel to the thread angle but threads are generally incomplete and the nose radius on your tool will vary. refer to the machinery's handbook for 3 wire measuring and specified pitch dia.
 

trumpy81

Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
219
Reaction score
52
Not a bad idea Trumpy. I had a look at tthe PDF's on their web site, would 3/8" be OK with you? They don't seem to have much of a range of metric sizes. I can get a price and pick it up on my way home one afternoon as they are not far out of my way.

I think I will also get a length of 12mm rod to practice my threading on but ordinary mild steel from Metalcorp was what I had in mind. You can take half of that too if you are interested. I guess I could get the machining steel for this size too if that appeals to you more.
Rod, any size will come in handy ... lol

Just let me know when and where to pick it up :)

For easy to machine steel go for 1214 (high sulphur but no lead :(), you can't weld it though. 1020 B.M.S. machines OK but it does tend to tear a bit. I haven't tried their 1045K B.M.S. yet (not to be confused with 1045 high carbon steel).

I have a couple of 2m lengths of 12mm rod that I picked up from Bunnings. True mystery steel ... lol ... but I'd definitely go for some 12mm 1214 ;)

Send me your email address. I have some PDF's you might like to read, in fact I have thousands of them ... lol
 
Last edited:

rodw

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Messages
1,143
Reaction score
340
Geez, guys thanks for all of the input and a bit from Tubalcain on Youtube (who I have watched a lot), I reckon I will be an expert at this before long :)

Trumpy, talk about Bunnings mystery steel. I bought a couple of bolts to play with from them yesterday, both have the same product code, one was 4.6 grade and the other was 4.8 grade. And one of them was 5 mm shorter than the other. I buy M12 bolts by the box but they are 8.8 grade which is abit hard to play with. Anyway, I used them to prepare some homework exercises yesterday:



So from here, I will correct the undercut (thanks Ross), do any other turning, set the change gears to threading 1.75 pitch, rotate my compound 29.5 degrees (plus my 1 degree error) and drop the belt onto low speed (60 RPM) and practice until I am confident of doing the drawbar remembering to stop the motor as I get to the undercut, retract the tool with the cross slide and reverse the motor to go back to 0 on the cross slide and increase the cut depth with the compound and do it all again!
 

radial1951

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2011
Messages
84
Reaction score
37
Location
New South Wales
Hi Rod, Screwcutting on an all metric lathe is no more difficult than doing it on an imperial machine. Just different.

Some metric lathes have a chasing dial with changeable graduated discs that fit in the top, depending on the pitch you are cutting. Others have no chasing dial, like my Stanko Toolroom Lathe.

With the starting lever on the carriage, it can stop and reverse out in 1 or 2 revs of the spindle at low speeds. A couple of dry runs in fresh air to get a feel for the coasting distance, and away you go. That is with 3ph motors and DOL starting. Lathes with a foot brake are a bit easier.

But watch it on 1ph capacitor start motors. If you hit reverse too quickly it will keep running forwards!!! And you will have one of those crunching panic moments...

As I said before, on this size work you can always stop short and pull it over by hand for the last thread or two.

BTW, if you want a nicely formed thread, you can rough it out by screwcutting on the lathe, then use your die to finish it to size. Very little load and wear on the die and it follows the thread perfectly. Coming up to a shoulder you can turn the die around and use the flat side to get closer. Don't forget the oil...

Regards, RossG
radial1951
_____________
 

radial1951

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2011
Messages
84
Reaction score
37
Location
New South Wales
So from here, I will correct the undercut (thanks Ross), do any other turning, set the change gears to threading 1.75 pitch, rotate my compound 29.5 degrees (plus my 1 degree error) and drop the belt onto low speed (60 RPM) and practice until I am confident of doing the drawbar remembering to stop the motor as I get to the undercut, retract the tool with the cross slide and reverse the motor to go back to 0 on the cross slide and increase the cut depth with the compound and do it all again!
By Jove, I think he's got it! Good on ya Rod, and keep us informed of progress...

Regards, RossG.
radial1951
______________
 

Swifty

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Messages
2,254
Reaction score
846
Location
Melbourne, Australia.
Thread cutting on a lathe with a foot brake is an absolute breeze. With a bit of practice a faster speed can be used giving a better finish. When threading, just stop by using the brake, withdraw the tool and then reverse back to the start and repeat until depth reached.


Paul.
 
Last edited:

rodw

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Messages
1,143
Reaction score
340
By Jove, I think he's got it! Good on ya Rod, and keep us informed of progress...

Regards, RossG.
radial1951
______________
Yeh, I hope so, the proof will be in the pudding later in the week. As with most things, you only need to miss one bit to make a stuff up. In my case, I missed the bit where it says "use the motor to reverse" and not really understanding how the half nut lever works as my last lathe was halfnutless!

Thread cutting on a lathe with a foot brake is an absolute breeze. With a bit of practice a faster speed can be used giving a better finish. When threading, just stop by using the brake, withdraw the tool and then reverse back to the start and repeat until depth reached.

Paul.
Paul, If I could have fitted in an AL336 with the foot brake I would have but unfortunately it was oversize for my tiny shed so I have to live with what I have got.
 

rodw

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Messages
1,143
Reaction score
340
Rod, any size will come in handy ... lol

Just let me know when and where to pick it up :)

For easy to machine steel go for 1214 (high sulphur but no lead :(), you can't weld it though. 1020 B.M.S. machines OK but it does tend to tear a bit. I haven't tried their 1045K B.M.S. yet (not to be confused with 1045 high carbon steel).

I have a couple of 2m lengths of 12mm rod that I picked up from Bunnings. True mystery steel ... lol ... but I'd definitely go for some 12mm 1214 ;)

Send me your email address. I have some PDF's you might like to read, in fact I have thousands of them ... lol
Trumpy, I've made an order and you have a PM with details. Their minimum order is $50. Not a bad way to buy stock, maybe we should do a Brisbane Group buy from time to time.
 

rodw

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Messages
1,143
Reaction score
340
Well, got a little bit further today. I widened and deepened the undercut and parted off the tip to get the length right. The undercut is sitting at 9.5mm wide but there is plenty of room to go wider. I am pretty sure that is enough for me to withdraw the crossslide while powering down the lathe at the same time in this distance.



I also went by Bohler Udderholm and collected a bit of steel on the way home from work. I had an interesting commute, but it ended up being not that far out of my way only adding 20 minutes to the trip.



This is some 12mm and 25 mm round as well as a piece of 15.88mm hex in 1214 bright mild steel. In case you are wondering, that is 3/8" just to prove that imperial units are alive and well in a country that adopted metric 30 years or so ago). Bohler Udderholm being a German based company ( I think ) has no imperial measurements anywhere on their web site, so 15.88m it is!

The bad news is that I am told I can't weld this stuff ( might add that my welding skills are not much better than my thread cutting skills!).

The 12mm was only $12 a length but BU have a $50 minimum order and cash sales have to be arranged before 3:00pm but I was able to book it to a credit card over the phone and pick up after 4:00.

Anyway, these all came in 3.6m lengths and Trumpy and I have gone halves in it so we ended up with 1.8m (6') of each size for about $40 each. Now what he does not know is that when he comes over to pick it up later in the week, he has to give me a lesson in thread cutting! :eek:;)

I've got a meeting tomorrow evening so the next installment will be Wednesday. Hopefully, I will have time to get my change gears swapped over some time.

If anybody else in Brisbane wants some stock from BU and don't need metres of it, then I would be in for a shared buy like this and Trumpy may even join in too!
 

trumpy81

Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
219
Reaction score
52
I hate to tell ya this Rod ... but 15.88 mm is 5/8 inch not 3/8 inch. 3/8inch = 9.525mm :p

By the look of those photos I wont have much to teach you ... you already know about keeping the half nuts engaged and reversing the motor etc ... so the only other thing you need to be concerned about is the thread depth. As you are threading, keep an eye on the 'crest' of each thread. The width of the crest will give you a good indication of how deep you are and how close you are to full depth. Having a suitable nut or threaded piece to use as a gauge is also handy.

And yes I would be interested in any bulk buys from BU or the like, so if anyone in Bris is buying stock and they have to buy too much, by all means contact me.
 
Top