Proposal to design a "First Build" engine

Discussion in 'Plans' started by black85vette, Oct 1, 2009.

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  1. Oct 1, 2009 #1

    black85vette

    black85vette

    black85vette

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    EDIT: while there are plans, photos and instructions in this post, it is much easier to go to the downloads sections and download the .zip folder titled "E-Z Engine build" The US and Metric drawings are both in the folder and a document with instructions and photos to help with the build.

    *******************************************************************************


    Don't know if this will work or if it has been done already, but it may worth a shot. My proposal is to create a very basic easy to build engine. Perhaps something more than an oscillating engine since there are several plans out there for that. Maybe more like an air operated single that someone starting out could do without a lot of experience or tooling. There are "Team Builds" on this forum how about we do a team design and see where it goes?

    My thought is to first agree on design goals / objectives by vote and then start brainstorming on a configuration that will be suited to the project and finally do a design / build of the project.

    Any interest?

    Hopefully it does not turn out like this:

    Tree Swing Cartoon.JPG

    Tree Swing Cartoon.JPG
     
  2. Oct 2, 2009 #2

    zeeprogrammer

    zeeprogrammer

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    The programmer had it right.
     
  3. Oct 2, 2009 #3

    Deanofid

    Deanofid

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    How about something like this. I built a few of these ten or so years ago. At the time, I had machining experience, but little engine experience. It's fairly easy to build. No fancy setups needed. Basic turning and milling, and can be done on almost any sized machine.
    The flywheel is 2 1/2" in diameter, to give you a sense of its size. If I remember, it has a 1/2" bore, 3/4" stroke. Single acting.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hqMqJeeznY[/ame]


    I don't have prints for it. It was kind of a "seat of the pants" engine. I'll take it apart and make measurements and rough sketches if someone else wants to draw it up proper so a new builder can read it.

    Dean
     
  4. Oct 2, 2009 #4

    chuck foster

    chuck foster

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    that runs real nice Thm:

    chuck
     
  5. Oct 2, 2009 #5

    black85vette

    black85vette

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    I think that would also make a good project, but for this exercise I would like to design something from the ground up with input from the forum.

    "Seat of the pants" may be part of the criteria rather than tight specs so it can be tweaked as needed. My question to the group is "What considerations are important for a simple build?" For example: assume the builder only has a small lathe and no milling machine.
     
  6. Oct 2, 2009 #6

    black85vette

    black85vette

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    I know all about programmers; as long as you document something a program does, it is a feature and not a bug. :big:
     
  7. Oct 2, 2009 #7

    Deanofid

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    By "seat of the pants", I only meant that I didn't start with any prints, not that it doesn't have to be built to a certain spec. If a person wants to build an engine that runs decent without needing a gob of air or steam, they are going to have to learn to build to a print and/or to (at least) reasonable specs sometime. It seems sensible to start them out with a spec to shoot for.

    I'd say a minimum of parts in easy machining materials and no overly complicated setups/geometry.

    Little or no soldering.

    Any threading needed should be achievable with common sized taps and dies.

    Critical bores should be able to be made using reamers rather than boring bars.

    Should be small to keep material expense down. First time builders make a bit more scrap than some of us who have been at it a bit longer. Ruining smaller pieces keeps the cost down.

    It's been done before, but maybe a pipe fitting engine?
    Another one that takes few parts is a poppet head engine, or a rotary valve engine.

    Can we assume he has a milling attachment? Does he have a drill press?
    If not, the build just got a little more complicated, but at least they'll have plenty of help here. Instructions will need to include how to setup drilling and milling processes on the cross slide and face plate.

    Dean



     
  8. Oct 2, 2009 #8

    va4ngo

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    I would like to see the following requirements for a first build
    Use of Lathe, Drill press and hand file and vice as the only tools needed and of course measuring tools
    Minimal number of components
    Very little machining i.e use bar stock where possible.
    No milling or a very small amount which could incorporate say a slot using the drill press.
    Requirement to hand file one part only.
    No Silver Solder
    Encourage use of clamps for holding down work stressing safety reasons.
    A diverse range of materials used to allow a feel for different machining qualities.
    Use steel and brass together as one unit somewhere for aesthetics.
    Encourage the builder to do some calculations from the drawing.
    A requirement to make one simple tool such as a reamer from stock to ream say the cylinder.
    Making a press fit item as part of the build.
    Incorporate a secret deliberate error in plans.
    All drawings to be on one page.
    Give pictures of alternative flywheel designs if one is to be used.
    Make it available in Imperial and Metric.
    Then make it a Newbie competition and add as project of the month for that design

    Cheers
    Phil


    Cheers
    Phil
     
  9. Oct 2, 2009 #9

    Deanofid

    Deanofid

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    You're kidding, right? A person new to engine building will make enough mistakes of their own without setting them up to fail.


    Okay, now I know you're kidding..
    ;)

    Dean
     
  10. Oct 2, 2009 #10

    black85vette

    black85vette

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    Great. Dean and Phil you both had a bunch of ideas I had not thought of. Lets leave this open over the weekend and see who else has ideas then we will try to have a vote to combine and prioritize the criteria.

    Phil, you are in charge of the error in the plans. :big:
     
  11. Oct 5, 2009 #11

    black85vette

    black85vette

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    To mill or not to mill. Seems to be one of the first issues we should agree on. Pick one of the following:

    This project should:

    1. Require no milling at all.
    2. Require at least a milling attachment for the lathe.
    3. Require some sort of small mill.

    Remember the target is a new builder and this project is something a little more than a basic oscillating engine. Post your thoughts then we will move on to other issues.
     
  12. Oct 5, 2009 #12

    bearcar1

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    You know I think Dean is right. Why in Zuess' backside, would you want to throw a fastball slider at a newbie by sinking the ship before it sets sail? Think bout the very first time that you began machining an engine. Remember? Remember all of the questions and anxiety you felt about the possibility of making a mistake? (still do?) I think that the emphasis should be placed more on what the beginner most likely has on hand as far as tooling goes. A drill press would be good but not absolutely required and a mill might be out of reach as far as available funds are concerned for someone just starting out. A lathe, that would *almost* have to be a requirement though. The use of the different metal files is a very good one to specify however as would be the size, It should be of adequate size so that the fasteners would be common sizes, 4-40 or larger but not so large that it takes two men and a boy to transport. I'm thinking max. 3" flywheel. Metric or Imperial, either one would be fine, but not necessarily both. Standard sizes, tooling that is COMMON to a beginner, and simple. Those would be my choices for a "first build" engine.

    BC1
    Jim
     
  13. Oct 5, 2009 #13

    zeeprogrammer

    zeeprogrammer

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    Having just started this hobby and having gone through a couple of kits...I'd like to offer the following...

    Keep in mind...I came in with the following goals:

    1: Build an engine.
    2: Develop my skills (I started with none).
    3: Develop a tool set (I started with none).
    4: Repeat the above in order of 2...3...1.

    Early success was the most important criteria. Otherwise, history has shown I would move on to something else. (As it turns out...success is subject to interpretation...I'm still here. ;D)

    One of the most maddening things I experienced while getting to the current point I'm at is discovering the need for 'yet another tool'. No doubt this was due in part to my kid days when you bought a plastic model kit, some glue, some paint, a knife, and brush...and you were set.

    I think a lathe is what most people would associate with model machining.

    So...

    a: Try to keep it to just a lathe. Not even a drill press.
    b: Keep the number of tools to the absolute minimum.
    c: Include in the kit a list of tools needed. (In one place!!!)
    d: A complete list of materials...sources if possible.

    I know that 'b' can be in conflict with the difficulty level. That needs to be addressed in the design as well. Success is paramount. The design should be as forgiving as possible.

    No custom tools, jigs, fixtures...etc. They (I remember) want to build an engine...not a tool...yet.

    Details!!! Such as how to run the engine once built. What's needed? Hose, air supply, etc.

    If this is going to be a 'real' proposal, kit, offer...get some guinea pigs to build it and note what problems they have. You will not remember what you didn't know and will fail to point out things they need to know.

    I think this can be an awesome project. When completed it can be a draw to the forum...make it a read-only thread. On that note this forum is a big reason why I'm still here (like it or not :big:). Keep it in the front.

    Maybe it's possible to give some options? If the player has certain equipment...they could consider some different feature? But otherwise, can still build?

    I hope this helps.

     
  14. Oct 6, 2009 #14

    Deanofid

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    Metaphoric musings much appreciated, Jim!
     
  15. Oct 6, 2009 #15

    black85vette

    black85vette

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    Thanks Zee. You have a lot of good input and we are thinking along the same lines. I think having a list of tools, procedures, and materials will need to be a big part of this. Hopefully we can end up with a complete project documented and then some posts showing several builds of the project as a reference to the new builder.

    I am not experienced enough myself to do this alone. I can't design, I can't use CAD well, and I can only build simple stuff. But much like I have found in my working life, if I can get the right smart people in the room with me I am an OK project manager.

    So, you smart people out there. Join in. (newbies also)
     
  16. Oct 6, 2009 #16

    shred

    shred

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    I'm thinking 3" flywheel stock might not be super-easy for a newbie to locate either. I've seen some engines done with faucet handles and the like for flywheels.

    With at least a 4-jaw chuck, you can make flat surfaces and drill holes in them at random spots, plus the usual round bits. Should be enough for a decent oscillator.




     
  17. Oct 6, 2009 #17

    90LX_Notch

    90LX_Notch

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    This is a great idea, especially since one of the goals of this site is to bring new people into the hobby.

    I would think that most people acquire machines in this order:

    Drill press
    Lathe
    Mill

    A survey of the members could confirm or deny this.

    I would think that by the time they are considering getting into this hobby they have the drill press and the lathe. That being said, the engine should be designed around having a dp and lathe or just the lathe by itself.

    Materials should be readily available at the local hardware store as well as drills, taps and dies. (Locally, I can't find anything smaller then 4-40.) This would allow for rapid replacement in the event of a mishap.

    Size: Keep it where the parts are easy to make but yet the raw material cost is affordable. (This factored heavily in my choice of builds.)

    That's my 2 cents for now.
     
  18. Oct 6, 2009 #18

    black85vette

    black85vette

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    Great input so far! I have combined and compiled ideas from the posts and here is what I have so far. I have broken the criteria into 5 catagories. The last two are not critical at this point but I don't want to lose the thoughts.

    Remember that this list is not fixed and unmovable. We may have to change or adapt as we go. This is to give us a common starting point for the specs of the engine. Don't nit pick here. We will start with the broad strokes and fill in the details as we go. Look it over and see if there is anything that gives you some serious heartburn or could lead to the colapse of civilization as we know it.


    MATERIALS

    Minium number of parts of easy machining materials
    Should be small to keep material expense down.
    Very little machining i.e use bar stock where possible
    Use a single material size as much as possible.


    TOOLS

    Minium number of tools
    Requires a small lathe / may not have 4 jaw or faceplate
    No mill or milling attachment - might give options if they do
    Prefer a drill press
    Bench vise / files
    Hacksaw or better a bandsaw
    Measuring and layout tools - square / dial caliper / dial indicator w/ magnetic base
    Critical bores should be able to be made using reamers rather than boring bars.
    No custom tools, jigs, fixtures...etc
    Use commonly available drills, taps and screws


    PROCEDURES

    No overly complicated setups/geometry.
    Little or no soldering.
    Any threading needed should be achievable with common sized taps and dies.
    Use screws with nuts where possible to reduce tapping
    Should be small to keep material expense down.
    Very little machining i.e use bar stock where possible
    Fasteners would be common sizes, 4-40 or larger


    ENGINE

    Max. 3" flywheel


    BUILD

    Include in the kit a list of tools needed.
    A complete list of materials...sources if possible.
    Instructions will need to include how to setup




    Next step will be to focus on the engine specs and configuration.
     
  19. Oct 7, 2009 #19

    90LX_Notch

    90LX_Notch

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    Looking good black85vette. Civilization will continue on ;).
     
  20. Oct 7, 2009 #20

    bearcar1

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    I think that is a pretty good start so far, nice job of putting that list together. Well done.

    BC1
    Jim
     

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