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gld

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I finally snagged me a knee mill. Lagun FTV-1. Going to order a VFD , and a DRO next week.

normal_image2.jpeg



The seller inherited it from his farther who bought it new. He is sure there is a manual ,but hasn't found it yet.
In the mean time I would like to move the ram, but not sure how it is locked.

normal_20220512_141636.jpg


I've loosened the two nuts on either side of the crank handle (red arrows) and it will not move. The ways are completely dry, So it has not moved in many years. Some way lube will be applied.
I got on Lagun's web thinking I might find date of manufacture. That web site sucks.
My serial # SE8511
All help appreciated.
 

ShopShoe

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Congratualtions on a new mill. I will be looking for updates when you get the VFD and DRO working.

I was glad to hear that you have the money for those additions.

--ShopShoe
 

ajoeiam

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How were you able to find such?

Here I'm really finding it difficult to find anything except from the commercial sellers and that's usually a full tariff!
 

Richard Hed

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Well, as it turns out, I did have it unlocked. Just didn't have enough leverage with only one handle. I made another handle and it moves easy now.
Thanks for looking.
I had a similar problem, the ways were completely glued. I had to move it with an 8 ton jack. finally got it to move and oiled it up.
 

Richard Hed

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How were you able to find such?

Here I'm really finding it difficult to find anything except from the commercial sellers and that's usually a full tariff!
There are tons of auctions in "your area". I mean that Wasshingtyon State is quite too far to transport but you are within distance of many auctions selling all kinds of good equipent. Look up auctions.
 

ajoeiam

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There are tons of auctions in "your area". I mean that Wasshingtyon State is quite too far to transport but you are within distance of many auctions selling all kinds of good equipent. Look up auctions.
Tried that.
There were some goofy expectations.
Most wanted a payment bond presented before bidding was possible.
So I was expected to send them some from $5 to 15k BEFORE being allowed to bid.
(I was thinking of bidding on things like a grouping of drill bits or other cutting tools.)
Then I was going to be stuck using some rigger that charged like $3k to load a 4k# lathe.
Also had a rigger tell me that the only way that a radial arm drill could be shipped was using a double drop low bed - - - so that there would be transport clearance.
(An idiot - - - - had no idea that the drill could be dismantled into three pieces!)
Also great when it was a $200 fee for the packaging of a number of small boxes that were already on a pallet.
When this kind of malaise became clear - - - - well - - - - no more auction flyers - - - -don't have time nor the money nor the inclination to deal with greedy stupid corporations.
 

Richard Hed

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I am in the market for a VFD. Am looking at some. the motor is 2HP, 3PH 240V. Input is 240V 1PH. Here is a Hitachi: WJ200-037LF

The price does not seem outrageous as some have suggested (I suppose it is outrageious for the amount of elecytronics in it). I noticed the pamphlets that come with it have pages and pages of "cautions"

here is a different page: Variable Frequency Drives | ATO.com --looks like cheapos

Here's one that seems expensive: https://www.southlandautomation.com/vfd?type=281

Any info is appreciated. I knows there has been much discussion on this before.

PS, I am back from the Philippines and working on the Bridgeport. Today we forgot to put in the blocks for the ram stop. Got one in easily but the next? Who knows?
 
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xpylonracer

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Richard

The Hitachi unit you linked to is not suitable for a 240v 1PH supply, the spec sheet says 3 phase input and also it is rated for 3kW motor so oversized for your use. I believe Hitachi are a reliable make so not necessary to use a higher rated VFD than the motor plated size.

This topic is discussed at fairly frequent intervals on the UK ME forum and many people report good service from the RPC units, however there are always some who prefer to buy the most expensive units believing the lower cost units do not function properly.
Lower cost may mean there are some functions used in an industrial computer controlled production line (as on the TECO units) that may not be available but the important parameters will be present although the manuals provided do need a bit of studying to determine the function use.

Whichever VFD you buy will most likely be IP20 rated which could mean you have to provide some form of protection against dust,swarf and/or water ingress, all depends on the type of workshop you have, so you may want to allow for a steel cabinet of some sort.

If the VFD is enclosed in a cabinet the controls will not be accessable so you will need to add a remote stop/start/speed pot unit fitted on the machine to provide local control. The remote control can also have fwd/rev/jog buttond if needed.

xpylonracer
 
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timo_gross

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---- however there are always some who prefer to buy the most expensive units believing the lower cost units do not function properly.
Lower cost may mean there are some functions used in an industrial computer controlled production line (as on the TECO units) that may not be available but the important parameters will be present although the manuals provided do need a bit of studying to determine the function use.

xpylonracer

One of the main, and often undervalued, functions of more expensive units is usable documentation.
Sometimes safety functions can make the "luxury" version interesting.

I prefer to pay for the luxury of a proper manual. Having the thing up and running in two hours, instead of researching for a week(end).

I was quite happy with some 2nd hand mitsubishi drive that I bought (FR-D720).
There is usually no harm done, running a smaller motor on a bigger inverter.

Greetings Timo
 

ignator

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I am in the market for a VFD. Am looking at some. the motor is 2HP, 3PH 240V. Input is 240V 1PH. Here is a Hitachi: WJ200-037LF

The price does not seem outrageous as some have suggested (I suppose it is outrageious for the amount of elecytronics in it). I noticed the pamphlets that come with it have pages and pages of "cautions"

here is a different page: Variable Frequency Drives | ATO.com --looks like cheapos

Here's one that seems expensive: https://www.southlandautomation.com/vfd?type=281

Any info is appreciated. I knows there has been much discussion on this before.

PS, I am back from the Philippines and working on the Bridgeport. Today we forgot to put in the blocks for the ram stop. Got one in easily but the next? Who knows?
Richard, that's not a bad price on a 5HP drive from Hitachi ($380).
I've gotten drives from dealerselectric.com, a bigger problem is that many are out of stock from the current supply chain problems.
Most of my machine shop is ran on VFDs. I've removed single phase motors from the lathe and drill press and replaced them with VFD driven 3 phase motors. I did start out with a RPC for a Wells-Index mill, but didn't like the noise of the idler motor, and that it had to be started as a separate operation, and was remote to the mill location.
I've had good luck buying used VFDs off Craigs-List, as well eBay. The big thing to watch out for, make sure it's a 200volt class, as the 400volt requires 440VAC input. I also make sure that the owner manual is available on line and download the pdf. I know there are some VFDs that are 3phase input only and monitor for that. But I've never had that issue.
My first VFDs were Tyco Flux Master models, they do not run at low Hz, as the motor will cog. This is because they were not sensorless vector torque models. So I recommend making sure they have that operation mode (which that WJ200 supports).
Keep the wires from the VFD to the motor short, as longer ones will produce more EMI as well spikes, that could punch through the insulation of the motor. These newer VFDs limit how fast the voltage switching is done, to minimize voltage spikes.
Don't mount the VFD directly to the machine, as vibrations can cause issues with components vibrating off the circuit cards.
 

ignator

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How were you able to find such?

Here I'm really finding it difficult to find anything except from the commercial sellers and that's usually a full tariff!
Where are you at in MN? I've been seeing many vertical mills on facebook market place at very resonable prices ($1500). They are typically rusty, as kept in a machine shed that is not humidity controlled. But it's all surface rust from years of non use and can be cleaned with abrasive pads and lots of elbow grease.
Like this one;
jetmill FBmarketplace.jpg

This is in Olin Iowa. Войдите на Facebook

I've seen several over the past few months of lathes and vertical mills, from what appear to be farms selling off machines as the owner got too old.
Hope this helps.

So if I put in Minneapolis as a search location with 100 mile radius and "milling" search words, I get
as the link I copied. If you don't have a FB account, you can't reply to the listings.
 
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Richard Hed

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Richard

The Hitachi unit you linked to is not suitable for a 240v 1PH supply, the spec sheet says 3 phase input and also it is rated for 3kW motor so oversized for your use. I believe Hitachi are a reliable make so not necessary to use a higher rated VFD than the motor plated size.

This topic is discussed at fairly frequent intervals on the UK ME forum and many people report good service from the RPC units, however there are always some who prefer to buy the most expensive units believing the lower cost units do not function properly.
Lower cost may mean there are some functions used in an industrial computer controlled production line (as on the TECO units) that may not be available but the important parameters will be present although the manuals provided do need a bit of studying to determine the function use.

Whichever VFD you buy will most likely be IP20 rated which could mean you have to provide some form of protection against dust,swarf and/or water ingress, all depends on the type of workshop you have, so you may want to allow for a steel cabinet of some sort.

If the VFD is enclosed in a cabinet the controls will not be accessable so you will need to add a remote stop/start/speed pot unit fitted on the machine to provide local control. The remote control can also have fwd/rev/jog buttond if needed.

xpylonracer
Thank you for catching that. I misread the phase business. I lookt up from that same dealer one that might be as good: WJ200-015SF
, however, I thot that one should double the amount of KW (horse power output). For instance, since my motor is 2HP, then a 5 HP output from the VFD should be used. Here's another: WJ200-022SF

I know nothing about these devices except for what I have read on this forum. There was a discussion in which I get the jist of it was that because of power losses, one should get a VFD oversized.

This is a mill (Bridgeport) and I doubt very much there will be much vibration. However, this is a small garage shop for metal and occassionally some wood, but not often. Dust should not be a major problem, however, I believe a small plastic or metal housing would not be at all unreasonable to protect it. But vibrations? I believe I should be able to attach the device somewhere directly to the machine for easy access without serious vibration. Most things I will make will be small and occasionally something larger. What's your advice?
 

ignator

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<snip>
I thot that one should double the amount of KW (horse power output). For instance, since my motor is 2HP, then a 5 HP output from the VFD should be used.

<snip>
VFDs intended to run on single phase input, only need to be oversized for use over 3HP. The input rectifier diodes are what limits this, and they are oversized for units below 3HP to operate without damage.
 
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Hi Guys, Is it possible for someone out there to explain how the motor torque changes with lower frequency? I am asking because my only experience is with "Cheap" PM motor variable speed, where as the speed is reduced, the power (limited by the fan cooling of the motor!!) drops-off dramatically at lower speeds, and likewise the torque. (I can stall the motor at 70rpm main-shaft speed on my lathe, using a 3/8 whitworth tap in mild steel! My friends similar lathe, but with synchronous motor of the "same size" and gearing cannot stall the motor, at any speed.). I nearly bought a Mill-Drill from a guy who had added £400 of 3-phase 3HP motor and VSD controller to replace the 1.5HP motor and belt speed-change.... then was selling "to buy a bigger machine!"... Reading between the lines, he lost the "Power or torque" to make holes larger than something like 1/2" or 3/4", when he wanted to drill at 1" to 2" holes prior to boring. And he said the machine would not take the cuts he wanted to make with larger diameter tools.... So, I bought the "original design" of this mill-drill, and the gearing applied to the 1.5HP single phase 1400rpm motor will rip your arm off, as it multiplies the motor torque at lower speeds. (E.G. The spindle has 10 x motor torque at 140rpm...). So I wonder how your Milling Machine will be with VFD? Is that to replace Gearing?
I am curious, because I simply don't understand 3-phase and VFD... when it translates as spindle speed and torque.
K2
 

Richard Hed

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Hi Guys, Is it possible for someone out there to explain how the motor torque changes with lower frequency? I am asking because my only experience is with "Cheap" PM motor variable speed, where as the speed is reduced, the power (limited by the fan cooling of the motor!!) drops-off dramatically at lower speeds, and likewise the torque. (I can stall the motor at 70rpm main-shaft speed on my lathe, using a 3/8 whitworth tap in mild steel! My friends similar lathe, but with synchronous motor of the "same size" and gearing cannot stall the motor, at any speed.). I nearly bought a Mill-Drill from a guy who had added £400 of 3-phase 3HP motor and VSD controller to replace the 1.5HP motor and belt speed-change.... then was selling "to buy a bigger machine!"... Reading between the lines, he lost the "Power or torque" to make holes larger than something like 1/2" or 3/4", when he wanted to drill at 1" to 2" holes prior to boring. And he said the machine would not take the cuts he wanted to make with larger diameter tools.... So, I bought the "original design" of this mill-drill, and the gearing applied to the 1.5HP single phase 1400rpm motor will rip your arm off, as it multiplies the motor torque at lower speeds. (E.G. The spindle has 10 x motor torque at 140rpm...). So I wonder how your Milling Machine will be with VFD? Is that to replace Gearing?
I am curious, because I simply don't understand 3-phase and VFD... when it translates as spindle speed and torque.
K2
I'm doing this because I have single phase power (240V) but my mill motor is 3 phase 240V. It's just to get the thing to run but with that extra goodies of which everyone speaks it's praises.
 

timo_gross

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I think that is one reason why the newer CNC machines all have so big motors, because some run over a wide speed range without gearbox.
This is from a catalogue for a smallish machine (BT30) without gearbox. Curve is for a Fanuc servo driver/motor system. 3.7kW (for 15 min), and 2.2 kW (continuous) does not have that much torque on the lower end at all.
To use a HSS slitting saw bigger than 60 mm diameter; is already very difficult with that. Everything under lets say 500 rpm has very poor torque. (the thing puts out up to 27HP for accelleration and braking ).
Long story short: I would not remove the gearing system when switching to VFD.
Untitled.png

Next question is: At what power rating would the Alibayzonfreight sell this particular drive and motor system? 27HP, 5HP or 3HP?
The machine tool catalogue sells it as 2.2 KW. :cool:

Greetings Timo
 

Richard Hed

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I think that is one reason why the newer CNC machines all have so big motors, because some run over a wide speed range without gearbox.
This is from a catalogue for a smallish machine (BT30) without gearbox. Curve is for a Fanuc servo driver/motor system. 3.7kW (for 15 min), and 2.2 kW (continuous) does not have that much torque on the lower end at all.
To use a HSS slitting saw bigger than 60 mm diameter; is already very difficult with that. Everything under lets say 500 rpm has very poor torque. (the thing puts out up to 27HP for accelleration and braking ).
Long story short: I would not remove the gearing system when switching to VFD.
View attachment 136460
Next question is: At what power rating would the Alibayzonfreight sell this particular drive and motor system? 27HP, 5HP or 3HP?
The machine tool catalogue sells it as 2.2 KW. :cool:

Greetings Timo
You certainly won't catch ME removing the gear box. My motor is 2 HP (wait, I really needs to double check that--maybe it's 3hp). I understand how that power drop works--IMNSHO it would be foolish to remove the gearing. Do people actually do that? incredible
 
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Hi Richard, You have got your sensible head on as usual. The lack of gears was what stopped me buying the converted mill-drill! But the guy was an Electrical installation guy, so didn't appreciate torque, speed and power.
On my recent motor conversion on the SL lathe, I need to make a 3 x diameter pulley to retain the full range of belt-geared speeds.
I am using the Variable speed control to get the rpm and torque suitable for the machine, as the new motor runs at 3 x the speed of the original, but lower torque.
K2
 

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