Necessary/desired machine tools?

Home Model Engine Machinist Forum

Help Support Home Model Engine Machinist Forum:

Joined
Sep 5, 2013
Messages
136
Reaction score
71
Location
Suffolk United Kingdom.
My workshop is in my basement, the machine area has no daylight and the walls are insulated and tanked. I have only experienced slight rusting on low-grade steel stock and none on any of my machines or tools. I do not use water-soluble oil for cutting just a squirt or two of WD40 or SAE30 lubricating oil as necessary. The temperature is always around 18 degrees centigrade winter and summer alike. I never considered a basement/cellar as having rust resisting properties but by sheer luck, it seems to have worked out well.
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
2,678
Reaction score
810
Location
Sunderland , UK.
Henry K. I suggest that the temperature changes very slowly in the battery. Therefore no condensation, so oil is perfectly OK to prevent oxidation. I keep all my large (MASSIVE STEEL/IRON) lumps in the garage under wraps. Thick dry "blankets", mostly old trouser legs. This ensures the slow temperature change does not gather condesation when the temperature and humidity changes in my garage. E.G. when I drive a wet car into the garage at night. The worst case of course is cold metal, then warmer humid air getting in.... I have had some rusting on odd things, a steel rule that wasn't oiled, just hung on a hook in a cupboard! But the blanketed lathe, driller-miller and anvil are rust free.
K2
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
2,678
Reaction score
810
Location
Sunderland , UK.
Hi 707.
I would avoid WD40 for rust prevention. It is an acidic water dispersant, so gets rid of water, but leaves the surface acidic - good for de-rusting and cleaning - but encourages oxidation
(RUSTING). Engine oil, SAE 30 is fine for rust prevention. Engine oil has corrosion inhibitors built in to keep the engine in good condition, from the acidic combustion vapours...
K2
 

TorchHypnosis

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2022
Messages
6
Reaction score
4
Location
Washington State, USA
You may want to think about installing a few strategically placed control cabinets and maybe getting a PLC. I like the Allen Bradley PLCs as they are pretty standard, I use a CompactLogix L45 myself. They are very useful in controlling things like E-Stops and alarms, or monitoring current draw, it can shut off your motors if your bearings start to go bad and handle things like wiring in fwd/rev switches and basic machine control. You can even integrate motion control for the finer machining. I use my PLC for VFD control, machine safety, my shop security system and everything in between. You can find a decent PLC for just under $1000 on eBay. Well worth it if you ask me. Not that much of a learning curve on the programming, you just gotta start playing with it. My 2 cents. Good luck setting up your shop! I'm about to move to a larger plot of land and install a warehouse on it for our shop so am doing something similar to what you are doing. I am very much looking forward to getting 480 3 phase power, I've got a ton of equipment that I cannot use because all I have is 230 3 phase.
 

ajoeiam

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2020
Messages
640
Reaction score
184
Location
blank (like some others I've noticed)
You may want to think about installing a few strategically placed control cabinets and maybe getting a PLC. I like the Allen Bradley PLCs as they are pretty standard, I use a CompactLogix L45 myself. They are very useful in controlling things like E-Stops and alarms, or monitoring current draw, it can shut off your motors if your bearings start to go bad and handle things like wiring in fwd/rev switches and basic machine control. You can even integrate motion control for the finer machining. I use my PLC for VFD control, machine safety, my shop security system and everything in between. You can find a decent PLC for just under $1000 on eBay. Well worth it if you ask me. Not that much of a learning curve on the programming, you just gotta start playing with it. My 2 cents. Good luck setting up your shop! I'm about to move to a larger plot of land and install a warehouse on it for our shop so am doing something similar to what you are doing. I am very much looking forward to getting 480 3 phase power, I've got a ton of equipment that I cannot use because all I have is 230 3 phase.
Lucky man - - - I'm looking at setting up an electronic phase converter - - - getting in 3 phase would be seriously expensive (7 digits range!)
 

Gordon

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
1,205
Reaction score
263
You may want to think about installing a few strategically placed control cabinets and maybe getting a PLC. I like the Allen Bradley PLCs as they are pretty standard, I use a CompactLogix L45 myself. They are very useful in controlling things like E-Stops and alarms, or monitoring current draw, it can shut off your motors if your bearings start to go bad and handle things like wiring in fwd/rev switches and basic machine control. You can even integrate motion control for the finer machining. I use my PLC for VFD control, machine safety, my shop security system and everything in between. You can find a decent PLC for just under $1000 on eBay. Well worth it if you ask me. Not that much of a learning curve on the programming, you just gotta start playing with it. My 2 cents. Good luck setting up your shop! I'm about to move to a larger plot of land and install a warehouse on it for our shop so am doing something similar to what you are doing. I am very much looking forward to getting 480 3 phase power, I've got a ton of equipment that I cannot use because all I have is 230 3 phase.
Interesting story: When I built my business shop I was in an industrial zone but three phase power was about 1/4 mile away. I was just starting the business and I could not justify the several thousand dollars to run in the three phase so I ran a rotary phase converter for several years. Finally I had enough employees that it was becoming a problem so I thought that I would just have to bite the bullet and spend the money. When I called the power company they told me that running new service required the fee but they could upgrade service for nothing. If I had know that I would have upgraded the day after they installed the single phase.
 
Joined
Sep 5, 2013
Messages
136
Reaction score
71
Location
Suffolk United Kingdom.
Hi 707.
I would avoid WD40 for rust prevention. It is an acidic water dispersant, so gets rid of water, but leaves the surface acidic - good for de-rusting and cleaning - but encourages oxidation
(RUSTING). Engine oil, SAE 30 is fine for rust prevention. Engine oil has corrosion inhibitors built in to keep the engine in good condition, from the acidic combustion vapours...
K2

I only use WD40 as an instant cutting fluid, the datasheet says " The product's formulation also contains anti-corrosion agents and ingredients for penetration, water displacement and soil removal." it does what I want and in 25 years of use I have not experienced any corrosion where I have used it. I do clean my machines down at the end of work and I think this helps in the corrosion battle.
 

ajoeiam

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2020
Messages
640
Reaction score
184
Location
blank (like some others I've noticed)
Interesting story: When I built my business shop I was in an industrial zone but three phase power was about 1/4 mile away. I was just starting the business and I could not justify the several thousand dollars to run in the three phase so I ran a rotary phase converter for several years. Finally I had enough employees that it was becoming a problem so I thought that I would just have to bite the bullet and spend the money. When I called the power company they told me that running new service required the fee but they could upgrade service for nothing. If I had know that I would have upgraded the day after they installed the single phase.

My power company thinks that the 'steel' wires that were installed in the 1950's are the best wires ever used.

Does that help in understanding the mentality from the power company?
(AIUI 14.4kV is the 'normal' for most of the NW States and western Canuckistan - - - yet here - - - there are some city districts that are still on 4.0kV and most of the system is on 7.2kV.)
 
Last edited:

jgalak

Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2022
Messages
9
Reaction score
2
Location
New York, USA
While I'm a newbie to machining, metal preservation is something I've dealt with a fair bit before. While not a professional, I've interacted a fair bit with museum professionals who have to deal with preserving metal artifacts such as historic arms and armor. Here's my take on this issue, based on talking to them and my own significant battles against rust:

WD-40 is terrible for **long-term** storage. It'll keep rust away for a few days, or even a few weeks, but much past that it makes things worse. As it dries out, it leaves a "gunk" that is hydrophilic, pulling moisture out of the air and promoting corrosion rather than preventing it. Don't leave it on ferrous metals for the long term. I've even seen it destroy stainless.

The best long-term rust prevention coatings are wax-based. Carnuba wax, like used for cars, is pretty decent, and the gold standard is microcrystalline wax. That's what most museums use. The problem is that while this works great on display pieces and such, it's not usually convenient for parts that need to move, like machine tools. If you are storing a lathe for many months, yes, by all means, apply wax. But if it's for storage between weekly use sessions, wax is a PITA since it really needs to be thoroughly cleaned from any moving surfaces.

For intermediate-term use like a typical hobbyists machine tools, the best bet is probably just oil. In the past, I've always just used a generic light machine oil, but I suspect that way oil is better, as it's more sticky and stays in place better.
 
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
15
Reaction score
2
If you have a small fixed space : you have to accept it , and sometimes it makes it inconvenient to buy and install machinery , tools , tables and chairs , shelves .. and inconvenient to travel in future
If the space is " open " : plan for convenience for future expansion


Lucky Me. I guess!

My home and shop burnt in a Forest Fire 66 months ago!

I had a 320 sq. Ft shop. basically, a converted 2 car garage.

For equipment. A 7x10. Mini lathe. A 9’x24 model B south Bend, rebuilt, starting with a perfect bed. I was finally dialed in nicely. I called her “Slappy”

1,. A rf 15 or 20. Rong Fu. With Added touch Dro and power fed x axis.

2 SIEG Sx2P mini mill. Added touch Dro and power fed x axis.

3. ‘4’ X6’. Cnc router.

4. Work bench with 6” baldor grinder a, 1x42 belt sander, and a benchtop bandsaw.


5. Work bench with a small surface plate and space for layout and assemly activities.
Two Small rollaround benches for projects.

a. 71/2” gauge, 0-4-0 Marie Estelle

b. 21/2” gauge, purley Grange

I Have a replacement. 600 sq. Ft shop, and home, now!

I‘m Thinking a direct Replacement with:

1. a 30” table, Sx3 class bench mill, a
2. 9 inch Class bench lathe.
3. replacement mini lathe, like a 6x16 Hi torque mini lathe.

Maybe another Sx2p mini mill.

My supplier, Very kindly provided a Listing of all the equipment and tooling I have purchased over the last 15 years. It all goes to my personal loss listing.

No replacement for the router, but, a replacement control system, will Make a nice start toward, either a Cnc or Hybrid machine, to save a lot of Handwheel “ spinning”!

My library and project drawings is another big effort. I am building up a preadsheet, listing all this equipment, and documentation.
Sadly, Lester, my shop Cat Perished in the fire. My home and shop are literally a pile of. Crumpled metal roofing. Blown apart by the Tornadic wind from the fire.

We watched the fire, from 3 miles away as it marched up the mountain. Counting off the homes on my road! 5 plumes of dense, black, smoke, signalling A petrochemical fed fire.
Older shingles under our newish metal roofs.
On number Five. I called my home which had a satellite internet terminal. and the little “computer voice“ said this User terminal is no longer “connected”.

With that, I knew “Lester”,the shop cat, had crossed over the “ rainbow Bridge.

the last thing I saw from my front porch, was an S2 “tracker” Making a “ run on our House,
At treetop level in a diving turn! Expecting to see Flashes. On the wing’s leading edge. The props and turbines just a’ howling! I felt the Buffet as he sailed past. Pulling out of a dive, along the rising terrain, is amazing to See! As a pilot, I know, Flying “Sky to Mud” is really, the ultimate challenge. Just a moment of “target Fixation“, and a Terrible message goes to a widow And kids!

What a heck of a way to wake up from a nap!

sorry, Long story Folks!

“keep on moving to the end of the road“ is as good as any. Driving down the road, Fire on both sides must be seen to be believed!






That rule is not for me .
[/QU
 

ChazzC

Well-Known Member
HMEM Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2021
Messages
102
Reaction score
34
Location
South Central PA
While I'm a newbie to machining, metal preservation is something I've dealt with a fair bit before. While not a professional, I've interacted a fair bit with museum professionals who have to deal with preserving metal artifacts such as historic arms and armor. Here's my take on this issue, based on talking to them and my own significant battles against rust:

WD-40 is terrible for **long-term** storage. It'll keep rust away for a few days, or even a few weeks, but much past that it makes things worse. As it dries out, it leaves a "gunk" that is hydrophilic, pulling moisture out of the air and promoting corrosion rather than preventing it. Don't leave it on ferrous metals for the long term. I've even seen it destroy stainless.

The best long-term rust prevention coatings are wax-based. Carnuba wax, like used for cars, is pretty decent, and the gold standard is microcrystalline wax. That's what most museums use. The problem is that while this works great on display pieces and such, it's not usually convenient for parts that need to move, like machine tools. If you are storing a lathe for many months, yes, by all means, apply wax. But if it's for storage between weekly use sessions, wax is a PITA since it really needs to be thoroughly cleaned from any moving surfaces.

For intermediate-term use like a typical hobbyists machine tools, the best bet is probably just oil. In the past, I've always just used a generic light machine oil, but I suspect that way oil is better, as it's more sticky and stays in place better.

Renaissance Wax is the Platinum standard of micro-crystalline waxes, and I use it both for wooden boxes (I buy measuring instruments on eBay that are in great condition, but the storage boxes are gray with grime: a light rub with an isopropyl alcohol dampened cloth & overnight air drying followed by several applications of Renaissance and they look close to new), and some tool surfaces. Many gun owners also Renaissance for stocks and metal to preserve & protect both. Both Brownells and Midway USA recommend & sell it for this purpose.

I oil & wipe my lathe ways, but the iron tables on my mill, drill press, grinders, band saws, table saw, belt & oscillating sanders; the mounting surfaces of the SpinDexer, rotary and tilting tables & vises; and the non-wearing bare surfaces on all of my machines are treated with Johnson Paste Wax a couple of times a year — a light coating and buffing and everything is clean and stays bright, with no residue to clean off before use. Yes, I will wipe the mill table and mounting surfaces down with alcohol before using PFG Stones, but re-apply wax afterwards. I have never had any issues with wax residue transferring to wood from the saws or sander, and on tables that are flat but not ground (including Aluminum), wood slides much better with this treatment. I learned this technique from woodworks, but it works for "real" machines, too.

The real secret to avoiding rust and corrosion is to clean frequently (particular after using water soluble cutting fluids) and keeping the workshop dry. My walk-out basement shop is underground with a door to the outside, but a dehumidifier keeps it at 45–50% RH all Summer and during heating season humidity isn't an issue. South-Central PA isn't coastal Florida, but it does get very humid, and the tools in my garage are still in great condition and ready for immediate use thanks to the waxing procedure above.
 
Top