More questions about my tailstock

Discussion in 'Tools' started by CraigLD, Sep 11, 2019.

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  1. Sep 14, 2019 #21

    goldstar31

    goldstar31

    goldstar31

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    As you will appreciate, I have only my SiegC4 lathe bed and tailstock to go on- the bigger version of the 7X. Again if the plate only is misaligned, it will as you rightly say 'things will be cocked' I certainly don't know and now, the replies- well, mine, are muddied with the points, rightly raised, that the tailstock belongs to another model- of which there is 4 or 5 very similar lathes- but all with different sizes of tapers.
    I hope that I'm making some sense in framing my new comments.

    Whatever, if it is wrong, I'd be kicking up a stink with the supplier. I'm not only concerned for the poster but for the rest of us who have desperately tried to be of some assistance.

    Thanks for getting to the end of my 'drivel'
    Norm
     
  2. Sep 14, 2019 #22

    Cogsy

    Cogsy

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    As far as I know all the C2 and C3 variants (7X10/12/14) utilise the same tailstock (all with an MT2 taper). Although this one looks a bit screwy in the photo, I think it's the correct tailstock but has some issue, whether in construction or finish. Certainly LMS lists a single tailstock which is supposedly compatible with all these models. There's not a lot we can do, aside from speculate, until the OP pulls the tailstock off and examines it or at least posts some more pictures.
     
  3. Sep 14, 2019 #23

    goldstar31

    goldstar31

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    I was 'quoting' what I read about differing tapers, one of which was a parallel thing:confused:
    Then again, this was possibly describing the 'English' versions:D

    Pity that I lost getting oneo_O
     
  4. Sep 18, 2019 #24

    CraigLD

    CraigLD

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    I have been reading all these responses to my original question with a great deal of interest. If nothing else, I am learning a lot. Mainly that I have a great deal more to learn. I can see that a large part of my original problem is that the tailstock wasn't sitting level on the ways. I went back and looked more carefully at the surface of the ways, especially that raise guide on the front way that the lower section of the tailstock rides on. (BTW, what is the official name of that guide??). The ways are actually quite smooth, but I think the issue is the "V" shaped slot that rides on this guide. For lack of knowing the real names on these parts, I will call them the "guide" and the "V" shaped slot. The guide is rounded, so the "V" shaped slot doesn't ride all the way down onto the guide.
    To help explain what I am trying to say, I have uploaded a couple more pictures. I used an angle indicator as a level to show that the two ways are quite level to each other:
    [​IMG]
    This shows that the angle of the front way to the rear way is zero degree. The level indicator is not square on the ways

    In this second picture, I placed the lower plate of the tailstock on the ways and then put the level indicator on it.

    [​IMG]
    As you can see, the level indicator shows 2 or 3 degree incline towards the rear.

    I had found a Youtube video where the guy indicated he had the same issue with his lathe. He had used a mill to open up his "V" slot. I don't have a mill, so I used a file. This allowed the lower plate to sit lower onto the guide. Prior to doing this, the incline was over 5 degrees. So filing it seemed to help, but perhaps I shouldn't have done this
     
  5. Sep 18, 2019 #25

    CraigLD

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    My images didn't show, let me try again:
    [​IMG]

    And the second one:

    [​IMG]
    Hopefully it will work this time.

    I still nee d to align everything. I have a #2 dead center, but still need to get a #3.

    Thanks for reading
     
  6. Sep 18, 2019 #26

    Cogsy

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    That tailstock does seem to have a manufacturing problem from that angle. Can you get warranty on your lathe? If not, I would consider ordering a new casting from LMS, preferably the one with the cam-lock rather than the standard - LINK and then I guess you'd need the cam-lock kit as well - LINK and just change over the other parts from yours. Check with them though - they're the experts.
     
  7. Sep 18, 2019 #27

    goldstar31

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    Craig
    Frankly, I'm shocked at what you seem obliged to have done.
    Under English Law you would have had redress against faulty goods under the Sale of Goods Act 1893 and subsequent acts and the crux of such is 'merchantable '

    Whether you contact E-Bay- together with your earlier photos or not is your prerogative but
    you seem to have a case. On the other hand, Cogsy wisely suggests that you obtain a new tailstock etc but so far, no one has established whether the lathe bed itself was faulty.

    Again, you still might 'run into' further problems with final alignment - and use.
    Maybe a 'stinker' to the seller via E Bay is the way to go initially and hopefully, a refund would enable you to have a proper lathe- and enjoy things with us here.

    You certainly deserve it

    Best Wishes


    Norm
     
  8. Sep 18, 2019 #28

    XD351

    XD351

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    My C2 lathe is exactly the same , it is how they are made and i doubt it is going to change anytime soon.
    To align the tailstock i put a dead centre in the tailstock and DTI mounted to a shaft in the chuck ( or a coaxial indicator if you have one ) i then use the DTI to sweep around the dead centre and adjust the tailstock until i get a zero all the way around the dead centre . You may want to check the headstock alignment before doing the tailstock as they can have issues there as well and shimming the headstock is well documented on the internet and from memory on the little machine shop website .
    I had to shim the vee on the headstock to stop it twisting as the vee in the headstock was cut too deep and didn’t register on the bed vee . Once you have that done and dusted do the tailstock and once you have a horizontal zero ( 9 o’clock & 3 o’clock if you are looking along the spindle axis you can determine if you need to shim the tailstock up to get a vertical zero ( 12 & 6 o’clock looking along the spindle axis ) . It is also worth checking to see if the tailstock is nodding up or down as well and a couple of thousandths up is preferred .

    A quick way to get it set up us to turn the ends of a piece of bar between centres and measure each end then jack the tailstock across so when you re machine both ends again they measure the same diameter .
    AAHHH the joys of setting up Chinese made lathes !
     
  9. Sep 18, 2019 #29

    CraigLD

    CraigLD

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    This becomes more interesting all of the time. :) I'm loading a few more pictures that show my tailstock. It does seem to match the one in the link from LMS. If need be, I can buy that one. I doubt it is worth me trying to pursue anything with that Ebay seller. I do want to follow the alignment procedures listed on the GadgetBuilder site.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  10. Sep 18, 2019 #30

    CraigLD

    CraigLD

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    Oops, I did it again, let me try again:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  11. Sep 18, 2019 #31

    XD351

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    You can buy as many tailstocks as you like but you will find they are all the same - they are designed to sit up like that .
    I would be more worried about the headstock as that is where 95% of the action is happening and if it is askew the machine won’t turn parallel no matter what you do . You also have to be aware that bed twist will affect the tailstock alignment as well so if you set the tailstock up so it is aligned when it is up near the chuck and your bed is twisted it won’t line up when it is on the end of the bed, that is why when i set up a machine i always start with the headstock and work towards The tailstock as it is the easiest part to fix . These are a budget machine not a Hardinge !
     
  12. Sep 19, 2019 #32

    ShopShoe

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    Ummmmm....

    I can't remember if you said you painted your lathe. If it came to you painted the way it is it looks like there is paint on the ways, which should not be the case. It looks like the seller was covering up some issues or was just wanting to pass on a poor example of this lathe. It is possible you have lots of things that add up to an unfortunate amount of grief for you.

    If there is someone near you who has one of these lathes and lots of experience they may be able to look at yours, or you may be able to look at theirs....

    If you put a general idea of your location in your profile so it shows on your posts perhaps it will help find someone.

    If you're all alone with this, then looking at what you find online is useful, but take a lot of it with a grain of salt and consider what the aim of each online source was in working on their problem.

    It looks like it is time to take a break for a period of time, then come back. It may be time to start over with new measurements of "Everything" and a piece-by-piece study of each component to see what all the problems are. You will need some good measurement devices and some time to consider what they are really telling you.

    It can be done, to a degree that will probably make this a usable machine for you where you are right now, but it will not make it into a Hardinge, a Monarch, or a Schaublin.

    To get back to your issues, I suspect you may have a poor example of the tailstock, or one that has issues that will be found with a teardown and careful analysis of it's construction. I do not recommend you go wild with any cutting tools trying to take off large amounts of metal. You will probably make things worse if you do. Filing and sanding will take away any flatness and precision from mating surfaces. Take your tailstock apart to understand how the lock mechanisms work: Does "locking" a setting move things over, up, or down? Why? How?

    You show your tailstock at the extreme end of the bed. I understand that makes the photo clear as an illustration, but did you check at other distances from the headstock? I suspect you may also have a twisted or "bellied" bed. It has been mentioned many places that cast iron "seasons" with time and in the old days castings were put out to do so for months, then rough machined, then kept around before final machining and assembly. The manufacturers of our low-cost machines do not have the luxury of the time to do all of this, so the parts continue to change before and after we purchase them.

    And I have not even mentioned that said manufacturers have not built wastage into their budgets. Every casting may get used, even if it is full of voids and inclusions. The saddle of my mini-lathe had a void that ran from the V-cut up to the top, but it was covered by the cross-slide, so I never would have found it without disassembly. I also have a set of "precision" V-blocks that have holes in them that have been filled with lead or solder, then buffed over.

    I think you are on the path to sorting things out. Do not give up, but take some time to think about what might be going on before going hog-wild with mods. You can easily end up "chasing your tail" with these things.

    --ShopShoe
     
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  13. Sep 20, 2019 #33

    awake

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    Hmm ... not how my Grizzly version is made:



    Note that there is, for sure, a gap between the tailstock and the flat ways on the left side - as there should be. But note further that this gap is even across its length, and on the right side, the tailstock sits flat, with no gap. Compare this with the pictures the OP showed above, where the gap on the left gets larger towards the left, and the tailstock does not sit flat on the right-hand way.
     
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  14. Sep 21, 2019 #34

    goldstar31

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    I agree with Awake about the lathe as there are no reports as far as I know about the UK versions.
     
  15. Sep 21, 2019 #35

    threesixesinarow

    threesixesinarow

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    The two mini lathe beds I have, both made by SIEG but many years apart, have the angled surfaces of the vees at different heights compared to the flats, which makes it so that parts aren’t really interchangeable between them.

    I can’t tell from the LMS cross section drawing here, https://littlemachineshop.com/products/drawings/4060LatheWaysCrossSection.pdf which one is more to spec, or how much variation there is in parts from them or from other manufacturers.

    Do your headstock and saddle also sit at an angle?
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019

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