Model Engine Ignitions

[scottyp]

Definitely use the IGBT's to drive ignition coils, it will save you a lot of headaches.

 

[74Sprint]

Definitely use the IGBT's to drive ignition coils, it will save you a lot of headaches.

Thanks Sol, I have used transistors, MOSFETs, IGBTs, SCRs, and specific components designed only for driving automotive ignition coils. It all really comes down to "what is the best device for the application of the circuit that won't break the bank." Now that may or may not make sense but, these are simple low cost ignitions. I'm still developing them and I probably have a couple of hundred dollars worth of transistors, IGBTs, and MOSFETs to play with and I have 5 boards of each type to play with or blow up LOL R&D. I do believe in NDT (non-destructive testing) but, that won't show what the limits are of what one has created. NDT has it's place if you are working with something that is difficult or cost prohibitive to replace. I will be testing these ignitions with transistors, MOSFETs, IGBTs to see which one meets my standard for low heat, efficient spark, and durability.

I am working on an improved ignition that I created years ago for my race car. That sucker is a multi-spark inductive ignition that draws 48 amps when charging and it put out a 100,000 volts at 1 amp spark that according to engineers is impossible to work. It used a bank of 2n3055 transistors but could only run for 15 minutes before it got too hot and smoked. At 30 amps it worked very well, 75,000 volts and 0.5 amp spark. It increased the gas mileage on my old truck by 30% and lowered my emissions by up to 75%. The new design (CDI) uses IGBTs and draws 56 amps charging but, the EMI/RF interference is horrendous. The old ignition was purely analog and the new is digital. Along with the EMI/RF bothering the digital design I also have voltage droop so I may have to cut back the current draw. The nice thing about the old design was that it allowed me to reduce the timing advance without power loss and the crank/rod bearings showed less wear. There is a ton of more stuff I could talk about but, that is for another time.

Ray

 

[74Sprint]

The tentative price for the Buzz coil KIT "IDI-ADJ-BZ-HV-KT" is $40.00 CAD plus taxes if needed and whatever the postal rate is for shipping.

Ray

 

[bluejets]

Remember this bloke used to come into Dad's garage with all these fuel saving wonders stuck everywhere.
When added up, Dad would say" have to watch this bloke if he comes in for fuel as he'll be putting gas back into the bowser"
Saving devices added up to over 200%......

 

[Gordon]

Remember this bloke used to come into Dad's garage with all these fuel saving wonders stuck everywhere.
When added up, Dad would say" have to watch this bloke if he comes in for fuel as he'll be putting gas back into the bowser"
Saving devices added up to over 200%......

I remember hearing a story about this guy who installed a gas saving carburetor, ignition, spark plugs and every other device advertised as fuel saving. He drove 20 miles down the road and his fuel tank overflowed.

 

[dsage]

"It increased the gas mileage on my old truck by 30% and lowered my emissions by up to 75%. "

The car manufacturers would love to hear from you.

 

[74Sprint]

Remember this bloke used to come into Dad's garage with all these fuel saving wonders stuck everywhere.
When added up, Dad would say" have to watch this bloke if he comes in for fuel as he'll be putting gas back into the bowser"
Saving devices added up to over 200%......

I know exactly what you mean. When I was doing my mechanic apprenticeship when I just got out of high-school we used to have a few salesmen trying to get us to sell their wonder products. In that one would wonder 'what the hell is he trying to sell us'. All kinds of things would come into the garage, from devices that would put air into the fuel to heating the fuel, LOL can you say fire. And then we would get customers coming in asking us to fix their wonder device because the car wouldn't run properly, LOL and then we would remove the device and just do a proper tune-up and the they were amazed how much better the car ran. But in my case I have actual witnesses and some documentation. This is not a B.S. story.

Ray

 

[74Sprint]

I remember hearing a story about this guy who installed a gas saving carburetor, ignition, spark plugs and every other device advertised as fuel saving. He drove 20 miles down the road and his fuel tank overflowed.

LMAO I like it.

Ray

 

[74Sprint]

"It increased the gas mileage on my old truck by 30% and lowered my emissions by up to 75%. "

The car manufacturers would love to hear from you.

Yes and no. Yes they would be interested but, no they wouldn't be. I have talked with a GM engineer through a friend and a Chrysler engineer through my brother both engineers were retired and both have now passed away. What they both told me was to forget it unless I was willing to practically give it away for free and also make it less expensive than what they are currently using. Well I'm not going to sell the licensing for 1% of net and there is no way I can make it cheaper than what they are using now. Remember when GM had problems with their ignition falling out or turning it's self to the off position? Well GM tried to save $0.15 on each lock (approx.) and they screwed themselves. Now 15 cents may not sound like much but, when you multiply that by 500,000 or 1 million then that is someone's yearly bonus $75,000-$150,00. When I worked for CP Rail, CP lost a contract to haul coal by $0.02 a ton. When your talking about 5,000,000 tons a year that's a lot of money. Right now I get between 7% and 10% of gross sales on licensing my products, there would be no way I would go for less than that. Car companies are notoriously known for screwing people over. Think of things like delay wipers. Also how come the auto makers don't use MSD products? Here is something else, when car manufactures make parts from raw materials they sell the parts to their warehouse, the warehouse sells the parts to manufacturing and then they sell the car to warehousing which sells the auto to the dealers. It's all legal and allowed accounting in the US and Canada. Parts work the same way raw manufacturing and/or third party sells to the main warehouse, the main warehouse sells to the distribution warehouse, the distribution warehouse sells to the dealers, and dealers sell to consumers, each time it changes hands the price goes up.

There is one thing that is bad about my maxed out ignition and that is it doesn't work well with hemi head style engines which, almost all automobiles today use. It likes to blow holes through the sparkplug boots to the valve covers or tubes. Another bad thing is the amount of current draw needed to give the sparks that is needed to almost fully burn the fuel. Yes I have had friends and family tell me that the car companies would like to see it but, they are not looking at all the problems when dealing with car companies. As for racing; I was doing some testing with Doug Doucette hear in Winnipeg. Doug has set a few world and national records with his nitro burning NA TAD dragster. In case some people aren't away, nitromethane is very hard to get it to burn in a cylinder when at 95-98% which, is why they always start the engines with regular gas or alcohol to get the cylinder temperatures up. You can light it with a match and it burns but, don't hit it with a hammer it explodes. Doug was willing to experiment with getting rid of the sparkplug boot problem. What killed the project was NHRA, they refused to allow it to be used by any racer. Right now all TF, TF/FC, TAD, TA/FC cars can only use MSD's listed products, I think some sort of kickbacks are used here, pi_s me off.

I will say this much about my maxed ignition, it takes advantage of what everyone else is trying to get rid of. It uses what I call regenerative coil charging. If one can understand inductive resonance and how coils especially auto-transformers (automotive ignition coils) work then that would be the basics of it. Auto-transformers or automotive ignition coils are wound usually almost always with the secondary winding on top of the primary which of course is wound on the laminated iron core. So the magnetic field cuts through the secondary when charging and discharging. The field also cuts through the primary when the field collapses which causes and shows up as ringing on the wave form, not just on the secondary. This ringing or kickback also shows up on a single coil (relay) which is why we use diodes or snubber circuits to eliminate or suppress them. You also have current wanting to continue flowing in the same direction when a circuit is broken, we use condensers with points to protect the points. But what if you had a way to enhance these effects? Well I do, the spark voltage at the primary starts out at 12-14.5 volts and with each spark of a sequence up to 6 sparks per firing, energy that would be normally be lost is put back into charging the coil. The primary voltages can rise as high as 1,200 volts or more. The sequence will raise the voltage until it discharges somewhere, anywhere but it will discharge. All ignitions will misfire occasionally but, in my case when that happens the voltage across the primary nearly doubles to quadruples. But I will not tell anyone how I do it not until I get some bugs worked out and patented. Slowly turning the dizzy manually it is really good at lighting cigarettes, try that with your ignition.

I have been studying and working with the process of how IC engines work for 46 years now, from charge intake to lighting it to exhausting it. Air streams into the intake runners to swirl in cylinders to deflagration to combustion chamber and piston design. Oh yah all IC engines need detonation, it comes at the end of the deflagration process. I have never heard what people call detonation, I have heard knock from bearings being hammered because of too much timing and trying to turn the engine backwards. This also shows up as cap walk. I have heard pinging only once in my life time, it was on my car and it sounds exactly like a ping, wrong plugs when cross referenced, too hot of ground electrode, a little too much reach, I was in a rush and had the parts guy look them up. OS's new RC glow plugs for gasoline engines use this action.

This isn't my first time at the rodeo so to say guys but, I can understand the disbelief. If I hadn't seen the results myself I wouldn't believe it either. When people say "yah right, sure it can" wink wink, it doesn't really bother me because I'm a 'show me to prove it person' also.

I blew all the transistors in about 10 seconds because I forgot to put the ground lead on, it did make sparks about 12" long across my wooden test bench (shown below.) At the time 4 2N3055's here cost me $60 plus I was laid off at the time, so it really hurt. Hell DigiKey now shows them as obsolete LOL. With the new MOSFETs, IGBTs, and also with SiC, GaN, and other new tech devices I think I can iron out the bugs.

I know it's a mess in there but hey it was a prototype.

Yes I know I need to clean it up. My test bench can run up to 15,000 rpm crank speed or 7,500 rpm for the dizzy for a V8. I can use external coils with it. I had to drill holes in the cap because the air in there was ionizing and causing some cross-firing. When running at full power it is quite noisy. I am in the process of making a new bench so I can test small and magneto ignitions.

Ray

 

[bluejets]

Ray,
I have been using ,with some degree of success, the cdi modules and coils for the "pocket rocket" motorcycles (50cc kids bikes)
Wondered if you looked at those in any way. (12v 4 wire units)
Picked up 1/2 dozen of each for future use for around AUD$5 a piece back before covid19.

 

[74Sprint]

Ray,
I have been using ,with some degree of success, the cdi modules and coils for the "pocket rocket" motorcycles (50cc kids bikes)
Wondered if you looked at those in any way. (12v 4 wire units)
Picked up 1/2 dozen of each for future use for around AUD$5 a piece back before covid19.

I looked at some ignitions mostly the GY6 stuff. Almost all the pocket bike stuff I could find were 5 & 6 pin AC CDI ignitions. I did find this one DC CDI on Amazon 1PZ UNS-DC4 DC CDI Box 4 Pin. I'm not sure if this is what you were referring to but, the price you paid is excellent. The one I linked to doesn't say what is needed for a trigger, bummer. Do you have a link to the ones you bought?

I just found a wiring diagram, it shows inductive magneto pickup but, no values. I also found a bunch on Aliexpress,

Ray

 

[bluejets]

Hi Ray,
Yes, things have changed a lot since the B**** virus, post and handling fees included from overseas.
Many 4 pin dc cdi modules available but they can go as high as $50 some times(crazy stuff)
Do not have original supplier as it appears they went perhaps to dust but there is this one among many I found this morning in a similar price range on Ebay (AUD$8.69...free shipping) but as normal, have to wait for it to arrive.
Used this as a search, I imagine the same/similar would be available to you there........ Ebay search ..... "4 pin dc cdi"

4 Pins DC CDI Ignition Box For 90cc 100cc 110cc PIT Quad Dirt Bike ATV BuggyYXAU | eBay

I did tests to some degree but my test rig is rather limited and one system works fine on one of George Punters tractors with 1/4" spark plug.
There is a write up in here somewhere but, with a few exceptions, was largely shot down by the knockers.

Model engine CDI easy and cheap

Welcome your opinion but as one has many projects on the go, I tend not to revisit that which is not appreciated.
Ours work and really that was all I set out to do.

Cheers Jorgo

 

[74Sprint]

I hear you about your work not being appreciated. I totally forgot your thread there, a couple of days after my last post on your thread I ended up in the hospital for a month from an infection and damn near died. If people want to buy my ignition boards/kits that's fine if not then that's fine to. I think your thread there was admirable and a cool idea.

I started helping a gent in Australia who wants a programmable ignition for his old Yamaha racing bikes using the PIC12F1840 but, I made the mistake of trusting my spice programs and had boards made based on that. BIG mistake, so now I'm going the slow way of making small modules and get them working first then combine them. I also may switch over to using a Nano or just the Atmel328P on my own board.

My big end game plan is to go from these boards to here to a full race ignition for my race car that will use distributor-less ignition using 1 CDI charging unit per cylinder but all controlled by 1 MPU/MCU using a crank and dizzy sensor. Along the way the universal trigger board will get a MCU. There are literally millions of ignitions out there used in automotive racing that are not programmable for timing curves, rev limiters, boost, NOS, and so on. This idea came from the people at the drag/road course and circle tracks here. They mostly run the MSD 6AL, which only handles 1 rev limiter. They simple can not afford a $750 - $2,500 USD ignition so I'm going to make a programmable interface for myself and other racers. No more design one, build one, and then trouble shoot and debug it. I have been buying used parts like MSD stuff and a Crane HI-7 ignition box and coil, I'll buy more if the price is right.

Wife says I can buy a Grizzly all-in-one lathe/mill once we sell the house and down size, can't wait.
What do you think of using an encoder setup for an ignition?

Ray

 

[bluejets]

Used to follow along in the speedway scene pretty much from when Dad raced TQ's (500cc dirt track) then on motorcross myself ( crazy idea....only 250cc but go like stink) but later as support for the speedway sprintcars. Half a v8 around 400hp, Hawk engines if i remember correctly, came from the States somewhere but they were dual magnetos.
Bit out of my knowledge base there, more up Dad's alley and at 92 I'm sure he'll be able bend my ear on the subject for many hours.
What was the encoder for that you refer to....?? cheers Jorgo

 

[74Sprint]

I was thinking of maybe instead off a Hall-Effect & trigger wheel setup that most use now that maybe I could try an encoder wheel and sensor on the crank. 2 reasons for this is higher accuracy and disable the ignition if the engine does a kickback. Kickbacks can make quite a large intake explosion depending on the engine setup. I'm just not sure if anyone needs more than 1 degree accuracy. Also MSD's Hall sensors tend to fail without warning from vibration. I also thought about using active IR sensor and reflective tape a crank wheel. Your thoughts?

I ran Yamaha dirt bikes 100cc school-boy class until 15 then 250cc but, by 17 I out weighed most other guys by 15-20 kilos so I gave that up. Raced 250cc snowmobiles for 3 years with my brother and at 18 I just raced cars. Started with 4 bangers and then V8's and haven't looked back, I like the 2.5g acceleration. My dad and a couple of uncles raced Fords on dirt tracks off & on when I was very young back in the late 60's to early 70's, so I guess that's why racing is in my blood. Currently collecting parts for a 496 CID twin turbo 1,000 to 1,200 Hp engine, I need more power LOL, 500 Hp doesn't do it for me anymore.

Ray

 

[awake]

Wife says I can buy a Grizzly all-in-one lathe/mill once we sell the house and down size, can't wait.

Ray, I don't know enough to comment on the ignitions, but did note the above sentence near the end of one of your posts. You probably already know this, but just in case - the style of combo lathe-mill which features a column on one end (e.g., like this: 31" 3/4 HP Combo Lathe/Mill at Grizzly.com) tend to have a pretty poor reputation. Yes, there are better ones and worser ones, and yes, some folks have done some amazing work with one ... but there is no getting around the fact that they are quite a compromise. The combo style which features a more-or-less standard lathe but has the option to mount a mill column behind it (e.g., like this: 8" x 16" Variable-Speed Lathe with Milling Head at Grizzly.com) seem to have a better reputation - still a compromise, but apparently a better one. Generally, however, the advice I have seen over and over again is, if at all possible, get separate machines rather than a combo.

You'll note in the above that I cannot speak from personal experience with any combo machine. I did start out thinking a combo machine would be an economical and practical way to get into machining, but as I read the sort of comments I am reflecting above, I was persuaded to look for separate machines - and so glad I did. In my case, I had the room for separate machines, and I was able to snag a great deal on a full-sized lathe and a small import mill for a total of around $1000. Later I added a Bridgeport mill that I was able to buy for $1500, and I put another couple hundred into parts to refurbish the VS head on the mill (a pretty standard thing to have to do), and maybe 50 dollars in parts to put together an RPC from a scrap motor I was able to pick up for free. Along the way I also stumbled on a mini-lathe (7x14) for a mere $50, but that was a once-in-a-lifetime deal, not the sort of thing I would ever expect to see again. Bottom line: for less than the cost of a decent quality combo machine, I have two lathes and two mills, one of each of which has far more capacity than most combo machines. The flexibility that comes with having independent machines, and more than one of each, is beyond fabulous. To be fair, the two full sized machines (one lathe, one mill) that I have are well used "old iron," which has pluses and minuses ... but they have served me well.

None of this may be applicable to your situation, particularly if room is tight for independent or full-sized machines - but hopefully it is useful as one data point as you consider what to buy.

 

[bluejets]

Hi Ray,
Ok, get the encoder idea and imagine simply an encoder wheel on say the cam shaft.
I think magnetic would be a much better approach than any form of IR for obvious reasons, still you could try and see how it goes.
High precision or extras such as kick back protection I imagine to be unnecessary and would possibly be a source of headache but you could have it as an alternative I suppose. With most of these engines here, as long as they start easily, run reasonably well ( some are shockers) and are maintenance free to an extent, most as happy as a pig in ***.
Talking of maintenance, had to do one of my old boat motors recently (Neptune boat) . Popped it on here for a laugh..... it used to be on spark with points but changed back to "racing fuel" ...................
The KISS approach usually wins in model gear at least.

Know what you mean about the HP never being enough however, the second 250 Yamaha was if I remember correctly a YZ250G 6 speed. It belonged originally to a bloke who came in at around 16 stone and bike was only a few months old so a suspension rebuild had to be done. That along with a new ring (only one on the piston) and it was a real handful. Taught me a lot of respect for little ole' 250. Look up after being bucked off to see Dad shaking his head.

 

[74Sprint]

The second lathe/mill combo you linked to is the one I was thinking of. I know a fellow racer that has that one and like you said it's not the greatest but it does most of his work. He does have an old lathe, I can't recall off hand the brand but it does have a 6 foot bed, quite a bit larger than I would ever use. Most of the lathes around here that I see come up for sale are usually for wood or industrial size. But I have some time yet before I need equipment. The YZ250G 6 speed is the one I had, scared the crap out of me the first time I tried it going full bore. I sold it after I came off a jump wrong and hit a tree, the tree won LOL. I then bought a Honda XL250 and just rode on the street and some trails. Ah life goes on.

Neat little engine you got there.
Ray

 

[74Sprint]

I was thinking after reading several posts here and on other web sites; “what is the very simplest ignition board that I can come up with that can be used by points, Hall-Effect, and inductive pickups and have adjustable dwell so it can be used with different coils”. So I came up with this below and see attachments.

Simplest Sparky:

Any comments?

Ray

 

[scottyp]

Just glancing at it, I like it. It's clear, concise, flexible and well documented! Just stating the obvious -