Making a Model Train - Steam Engine

[Tin Falcon]

Well Abby there is no rule saying you need to agree or understand the views of the staff here you just need to respect them.
Tin

 

[Tin Falcon]

PG A note about scraps. the Ideal material for model engineering is industrial manufacturing machine shop scraps. Many scraps from a screw machine shop are ideal. A screw machine take a 10 foot piece of bar stack and machines parts off the end when the machine get to the end of the bar there is typically a 100 mm long piece left that is too short for the machine to use. Any material from a scew machine should be easy to machine.
Again a plummer has a ten foot piece of pipe cuts what he needs and often has short pieces left over. This type of scrap is ideal for what you are doing.
And if you show the guys in the shops what you plan to build and why they may give you the pieces you need.
And old washer dryer or refrigerator will give you lots of sheet metal. printers copiers shafts and bushings. And like I said earlier a brass kick plate from an old public building door will give plenty of brass plate for a small loco. and take pics and document.
You may have to pound pavement (US vernacular for lots of walking) and visit a few places to get what you need. and do not be afraid to collect a little extra and select the best finds for your project.
Tin

 

[princegift]

PG A note about scraps. the Ideal material for model engineering is industrial manufacturing machine shop scraps. Many scraps from a screw machine shop are ideal. A screw machine take a 10 foot piece of bar stack and machines parts off the end when the machine get to the end of the bar there is typically a 100 mm long piece left that is too short for the machine to use. Any material from a scew machine should be easy to machine.
Again a plummer has a ten foot piece of pipe cuts what he needs and often has short pieces left over. This type of scrap is ideal for what you are doing.
And if you show the guys in the shops what you plan to build and why they may give you the pieces you need.
And old washer dryer or refrigerator will give you lots of sheet metal. printers copiers shafts and bushings. And like I said earlier a brass kick plate from an old public building door will give plenty of brass plate for a small loco. and take pics and document.
You may have to pound pavement (US vernacular for walking) and visit a few places to get what you need. and do not be afraid to collect a little extra and select the best finds for your project.
Tin

Greetings sir
Okay I will do that starting tomorrow morning. Will collect as much as possible!

Thank you.

 

[lennardhme]

Folks, I have been communicating the this fellow privately, & his parameters are a loco at least 15" long & capable of pulling a human sized load. This is not a feasible project in the time frame given, particularly one made from scraps.
I have reservations that this is a bona fide college project. Happy to help anyone, but a little honesty helps as well.
Leonard

 

[princegift]

Folks, I have been communicating the this fellow privately, & his parameters are a loco at least 15" long & capable of pulling a human sized load. This is not a feasible project in the time frame given, particularly one made from scraps.
I have reservations that this is a bona fide college project. Happy to help anyone, but a little honesty helps as well.
Leonard

Greetings sir!

I agree with what you said.
Actually here in India, to make some small or model locos or bikes or cars needs no licensing or registration. No one cares about what innovation you have achieved. Else India wouldn't still be a 'Developing Country'.
And as you mentioned, Yes my coordinator argued with me for 25 minutes that building such big model(real working model) would take me a year atleast even if they provide me with access to all the CNCs at our college.
But I talked him into giving me a green signal!
I went through the drawings and found that 'the smaller the Loco, the smaller the parts!' So it would be a challenge machining out such small parts, this was the other reason for me to go for a bigger loco as it would have slightly bigger parts.
So now I accept that for my first Loco and for the time frame I have to make a small Loco.
Now let me stop myself making very high assumptions and move ahead as you suggest me to.

Thank You.

 

[Tin Falcon]

Well Leonard not sure what to say there. Sometime engineers are expected to do the impossible. We are not mind readers so can only answer questions based on the information given. This may be a team effort as is often the case with engineering projects.
I am not going to over speculate.

When the kid said small model train I am thinking HO not 3/4 to 1 1/2 inch to the foot or 3 1/2 in 7in gage. HMMMMM

 

[princegift]

Well Leonard not sure what to say there. Sometime engineers are expected to do the impossible. We are not mind readers so can only answer questions based on the information given. This may be a team effort as is often the case with engineering projects.
I am not going to over speculate.

When the kid said small model train I am thinking HO not 3/4 to 1 1/2 inch to the foot or 3 1/2 in 7in gage. HMMMMM

Greetings Tin sir.

Yes you are right. This is a team project. We are a team of four. But here they make teams based on the roll number. And all my other teammates are girls. So I don't want to put much pressure or work load on them.
I will be a 'One man army' for time-being

Thank You.

 

[Tin Falcon]

While machining tiny things has its own challenges and difficulties scaling things up has problems as well.

for example building a 1 1/2 to the foot locomotive vs 3/4 into the foot the end product will weigh 8 times as much cost 8 time as as much and take almost 8 times as long to build.
Ok maybe some exaggeration on the time but it is literally 8 times the material. IMHO you should have listened to your adviser/ coordinator.

OK out with the cracker plans. but john -tom.com has several larger plan sets you need to look at.

Hmm army of one IMHO not going to work. This needs to be a team effort. you need to find the strengths of your team members and delegate. If you have an artist in the group use her artist are visual and see things that others may not. Learn to delegate pull the whole load and you will soon tire and fall. Ultimately the four of you will succeed or fail as a team. Start dividing the work now to insure success. And attitude !!! all of you need to believe you will succeed. believe you will fail you will. believe you succeed you will. Pull together as a team.

And all my other teammates are girls. So I don't want to put much pressure or work load on them.

Do your best to divide each step of the work in four equal parts and as much as possible let them choose there assignments. That way they are taking on there own work load. you may end up with the leftovers or batting cleanup but they will have a choice.

You need to look at your team members as fellow classmates. If they are engineering students at the same level as you they need to do the same work and may need to get there hands dirty.

Tin

 

[princegift]

Yes sir now I regret to have been talking him into allowing me to lift the allowed dimensions for the project.
Tomorrow the team will be brainstorming and contributing some ideas on who is going to do what. May be then i ll be able to divide the work.
So now I will make a small Loco only which would act as a first step in my Model building career(a hobby).
Once this is a success, I will build a bigger loco for myself and perhaps one day start a Steam Model Club(inspired by Mr. Leonard and Mr. Tin).

Thank You.

 

[Tin Falcon]

PG if you can print out or make digital copies of several plan sets so all the team members can be on the same page.

Agreeing on a plan will be your first step.

Tin

 

[princegift]

Yes sir I will do that surely tomorrow!
So now I will make a small Loco only which would act as a first step in my Model building career(a hobby).
Once this is a success, later I will build a bigger loco for myself and perhaps one day start a Steam Model Club(inspired by Mr. Leonard and Mr. Tin).

Thank You again.

 

[lennardhme]

Tin,
I'm sending Gift [as he asked me to call him ] scans of the DeWinton style vertical boiler loco in Stan Brays 'Making Simple Model Steam Engines' Nothing in their local libraries.
As you know this is a basic build designed for the novice so should be a good starting point for them. His latest email seems to have more reasonable expectations.
I have been to India & have an understanding of the hardships they work under, & facilities they have.
Happy to work through a team build if you think appropriate, but concerned about the confusion this could create for them. Too many good ideas can be a bad thing?
cheers,
Leonard

 

[princegift]

Greetings and good afternoon sir!

I thank you for your kind consideration.
Another reason why I suddenly jumped my heights of making a Big Loco was after seeing the mesmerizing videos of 'ALTONA miniature Railways'
They were so cool and awesome! Why don't we have such clubs here??
The people were enjoying their rides.
Everyone was having great fun
So many Locos
Some steam engines- small and big....pulling loads or humans
Some diesel
some electric
And some were driven by kids too!

Wooooowwwwwww...........!!!!

 

[Sshire]

Leonard
Stan Bray's builds and plans are excellent for a beginner (and beyond). Great idea.

 

[Tin Falcon]

I have been to India & have an understanding of the hardships they work under, & facilities they have.
Happy to work through a team build if you think appropriate, but concerned about the confusion this could create for them. Too many good ideas can be a bad thing?
cheers,
Leonard

Len at this point in the game I think as many options on the table is a good thing . But quickly a plan need to be established and concentrated on. The worst thing is a great idea pops up half way through the project.
Sounds like you have a much better understanding of his culture than I do. Take a look at rose and juliet here Plans
At this point they need to establish Size of engine and boiler.
And leonard if you want to guide and Mentor I think that an excelent Idea as long as they have the final say and own the project. And from what I have seen gift will want the final say.
IMHO the team needs to focus on function and let form take a back seat not time to worry about the bells and whistles. (did i say that ?) yes pun intended.
Cheers all this is going to be fun.
And gift I encourage you and your team to post progress hear as this project develops.

tin

 

[Tin Falcon]

Leonard
Stan Bray's builds and plans are excellent for a beginner (and beyond). Great idea.

And the Author has a really cool first name
Tin

 

[Entropy455]

One comment that caught my eye on this thread - is that the engineering students have access to metal working equipment (lathe, mill, etc). Question: so how many of your engineering students are machinists also?

Where I work, our machinists go through a 4-year apprenticeship program. They receive hundreds of hours of formal training on how to operate metal working equipment, and then they spend thousands of hours honing their skills on the machines. The apprentices will usually be tasked with rough-cutting parts to approximate dimensions, and then a machinist will finish the parts per plan. After four years of this formal & supervised OJT, the employee receives the title “machinist” and starts finishing close-tolerance parts of his own. This may seem excessive, but in our line of work, first-time quality parts are mandatory – whereas defective parts will result in a loss-of-life.

I am a mechanical engineer. My job is to sit at a desk and make sure that machine designs are safe and efficient. I seldom interface with our machinists at work. And when I do, it’s to evaluate and approve non-standard repair procedures, or to specify special heat controls, or to authorize a deviation from plan. Point being - an engineer will never go out onto the production floor and take control of a lathe & mill, and start cranking out parts on the job. So WHY is your engineering professor having you do this?

You should be designing the locomotive from scratch – identifying the starting material for every part – specifying alloy, grade, temper, etc - and specifying every dimension and tolerance. You should be identifying the stress and strain within every piece, and specifying the design factor-of-safety. You should be required to determine the enthalpy, entropy, quality, and mass-flow-rate of the system fluid across every valve, piston, boiler tube, and steam component within the system. And lastly, you should be able to calculate and provide the overall thermodynamic efficiency and net power output of your design. This is what an employer will expect from an engineer.

I agree with Abby. Building a steam locomotive (while totally cool) is not a mechanical engineering design project – it is a metal-trades project. The fact that you’re seeking to procure a preexisting design for an easy grade, is a giant RED FLAG. You should discuss this with your professor.

 

[Tin Falcon]

Entropy : I am not here to argue the point you made . for here in the USA in this day and age there is a clear line between a machinist and an engineer as professional titles and positions.

In the armature world hobby world it is a different story.

In the late 1800s early 1900s in the US the line between Engineer and machinist was somewhat blurred Engineers were expected to have hands on knowledge of machining, pattern making, foundry work etc. As well as the ability to calculate stress strain etc. And manage and supervise.
As gift mentioned he is from a "developing nation" so this may be the case in I India.
I agree whatever project he chooses should be under the supervision of his professor adviser . And he needs to work within specified parameters to make the grade.
I agree it is the engineers job to make the calculations specify the material tolerances etc. but how is a student going to prove a design except to build it with some assistance.
Tin

 

[stevehuckss396]

I think everybody needs to take a break and look at this from another angle. If this fellow from India had not identified himself as a student and was a 60 year old guy, would you care what the intended goal was? Look at it for what it really is. Here is a fellow from India with little to nothing to work with trying to learn how steam engines work so he can build a model train. Other than the India part that sounds like about half of the people here on this forum. Bottom line he is here to learn and ask questions and quite frankly so am I. This is why we are here and thank you mods for providing us a place to do it. Why don't we forget why and concentrate on what he is doing and try to help out if we can. I personally don't have anything to add because I know jack about steam but if I could help I would. Lets forget about the student part and get back to the spirit of the forum which is to help him out.

Cheers!

 

[Tin Falcon]

Well stated Steve. The goal from the beginning has been to make all welcome who want to learn about building model engines. The only other stated prerequisite is the ability to act in a respectful manner.
I do expect honesty as well. the guy who introduced himself as being from the USA and had a Chinese IP address did not last long.
And after all model engine building is known as model engineering in other parts of the world . One definition of engineer is one who builds runs or manages engines.

Tin