I wish we'd team build a boiler now

[BobWarfield]

I was just looking at the parts I've gotten so far for the team build--getting ready to pack up the flyweels and con rods and mail 'em out. I'll be sorry to see them go, but putting them together with the crank and frame I was getting excited. These are going to be real nice little engines.

It made me start thinking about a boiler. I don't suppose anyone wants to team build some boilers? I don't know if it'd save any time or not, but I've got to hear these little beauties run on steam. They just don't sound right on air if you ask me. While we're at it we need to build some little whistles too, LOL.

Cheers,

BW

 

[Powder keg]

I've been thinking that would be a great Idea. It might save a little time? Plus it would be fun)

Wes

 

[Brass_Machine]

As much as I would like to do this... The issue of safety is bouncing in the back of my mind. I am not sure this would be a great idea.

I will tell you what I did. I bought a small wobbler kit that included a small boiler that runs off of sterno. I use that boiler when I want to run things off of steam until I get the courage to build a nice boiler.

Eric

 

[Florian]

Hi Guys

Boilermaking can be quite easy, if you have certain information about. I have a small book about boilermaking and there are (almost) all the informations one needs to build boilers. There even is a plan for a nice looking boiler in this book.
All the important things about safety is included, so the person consulting that book should be able to build a safe steam boiler.

Here an extract from this book:














It is very important, that the boiler gets silver soldered.
And of course, you need to make the pressure test

Florian

 

[Florian]

On the fifth picture you can see what materials with a boiler can be made. All you need is having the wholes drilled, adding ferrules and soldering the boiler.

Florian

 

[Bogstandard]

I am not trying to say that people couldn't make a good job of it, but as Eric says, safety with boilers is paramount.

Just think of it this way.

Would you put your life in the hands of others for the sake of a hobby?

I am sure I wouldn't.

I would suggest, if you want one, build it yourself, or purchase one from a professional source, and if anything goes wrong, you only have yourself to blame. Plus there would be no massive lawsuits against the other team members.

Concerned John

 

[Florian]

Would you put your life in the hands of others for the sake of a hobby?

Hi Bogstandard

Well... Safety first, thats what i agree, but that doesn't mean that you completely abdicate doing something.
For example: there always is the danger of having an accident on the street. But do you stop driving your car because there is a danger? Normally No! You can minimize the danger if you drive careful and attentive.

And that's the same with boilermaking. If you follow certain principles of boilermaking like:

-calculating how thick the sheet for the boiler has to be (And using a big enough security factor)
-soldering it with silver soldern (Even Wilesco doesn't silver solder their boilers...!)
-making a water pressure test
-consult an expert for the project if you don't know anything about
-The person soldering the boilers NEEDS TO HAVE EXPERIENCE IN HARD SOLDERING!!

(and there are maybe some more)

then you should get a quite safe boiler.
Of course i don't want to instigate a (boilermaking-) newbie to do this.

I make my boilers by myself. And they are working quite well. I followed all these principles listed above and i think my boilers are safe.

By the way: all the boilers working in 5" locomotives... they have been made by experts or by the locomotive-builders themselfs. But will you now get around these locomotives?

Florian

 

[Cedge]

Florian
Without trying to start any arguments, would you really trust me, sight unseen and having never seen me solder, to do so on a pressure vessel that you are going to stand next to?

The board has a fair percentage of novices in the mix, many of whom do not have your skill sets nor access to your informative book. Getting in way over one's head can easily happen, even with the best of intentions. If an individual gets into trouble, only one person is likely to suffer. In a group build, that number goes up geometrically. I'd recommend that anyone who is interested in building a boiler, feel free to do so , but arm your self with enough knowledge to do it safely. It's just not a good idea for a group build on the basis of varied skill levels, experience, safety or personal liability. I can't blame the "powers that be" for not wanting to officially sanction the idea.

I for one would feel quite bad if a fellow member was injured due to advice I gave while assuming "anyone can do it". Definitely not something I'd want shared with a jury of my peers.

Steve

 

[Bogstandard]

Florian,

then you should get a quite safe boiler

Why should, instead of would, and why quite?

I have been making boilers for most of my life in model engineering, and I am not saying you should not make boilers.

What I am saying, unless you know exactly what you are doing, and have total control over it, then you should not rely on someone else's workmanship to give you the raw materials and parts to make one out of. Professional boiler makers are covered by laws regarding manufacture, your model engineering buddy isn't.

If you have say six FULLY experienced boilermakers, then yes, maybe take a chance, and let someone make the parts for you, but even that would put me off making a boiler. It is my life that I would be risking, if I am going to take that risk, and it is a risk, then I would like to know no one else is responsible for any of the parts other than myself.

I might be classed as interfering and over cautious, I am still here, will you be after you have made your boilers?

Your decisions, your bodies.

'nuff said

John

 

[BobWarfield]

Seems to me there is a lot of work to a nice boiler beyond the silver soldering. There is press work, for example, to form the domed ends or a steam dome. There is plumbing and turning work to make various bungs, valves, sight glasses and the like. There is an alcohol or other burner to be made.

One could assign every bit of the non-soldering to a team build, and then have each individual do their own soldering and pressure testing once they receive the full kit of parts. There is also silver soldering that has no pressure-bearing requirements that could be considered.

We could also start from a set of plans that have been vetted as working well.

If you're worried about the liability, I understand, but any team build whatsoever has liabillity. All machine tools are dangerous. Who is to say that someone who injures themselves building their part doesn't choose to sue the group for having dragged them into the build in the first place? And heaven forbid someone like Bog give anyone advice or show how he's making parts on a lathe or mill lest that lead to liability too.

I don't quite understand the view that boilers are inherently more dangerous than even a drill press, that most feared of machines in our shops.

In any event, if you don't want to do it, then you don't want to do it.

Cheers,

BW

 

[rangerssteamtoys]

A small toy boiler 15psi- is quite simple. I built 2 so far, on from a midwest kit and the other from a piece of exhaust pipe. The steel one was wleded by my dad and we added pressure gauges and I even made a simple steam engine. There was no saftey valve : but it worked.

A small toy boiler like a 2" copper boiler with a few fire tubes would be OK. Add all the saftey features and I see no problem with it, we make the parts and YOU solder it. So if you mess up its your fault.

I believe that some of you do use too much saftey, on big things its OK to use quite a bit of saftey but on little things you dont have to use as much saftey as on the big ones. Example if you were going to build 2 boilers, on thats for a toy and goes to about 20 psi. The other for a locomotive and goes up to about 150 psi, would you use the same materials for both? No, a big boiler needs more metal than a small boiler.

Sorry if this is offensive to some but if you look at the forum alot of it is arguing about saftey.

 

[Cedge]

Bob...
Pretty simple... my drill press isn't likely to explode in a scalding cloud of steam if I make a minor miscalculation.

No one is saying boiler building is verboten, just that the board owner/admin/mods don't feel comfortable in blessing a group effort for building them. Each time we power a machine, we each make a choice on how much risk is acceptable, because we control that aspect of the hobby within our own shops. That's a wee bit different from asking the owner of the board to accept a group assessment of what his own exposure should be.

Unsanctioned builds are not forbidden, even among a group of members. It just wouldn't be an HMEM board organized project. Any individual can organize such a project... but it doesn't have to require board approval. The rest of us will even enjoy watching it's progress, just as we do with any build that is shared here.

Ranger...
You might be confusing the terms safety and precaution. Material choices can be just as important to safety as remembering not to leave a chuck key in a chuck. The end result of ignoring either is an injury. At 14 you've not yet witnessed the blood and gore of a fatal incident brought on by moment of inattention to safety. I wish I were so blessed... perhaps I'd still feel invincible too.

Steve

 

[Alphawolf45]

Bob Warfield
I'd do boilers with you. I have 100 ton shop press and cnc mills if need to make press dies..What size you hankering to build?...

 

[rangerssteamtoys]

Steve-I'm just saying that we can do it with the right amount of saftey an precaution. Too much and nothing gets done and/or someone gets scared out of the hobby. I believe in enough saftey to not be injured/killed, I believe that I get this "saftey is not that big of a deal" from my dad.

When it comes to fire- I'm really safe, I have had a few explosions and some strange things happen. I should treat steam almost like fire and I try.

Bob- Who are you talking about boilers too? Me or someone else?

 

[Cedge]

Ranger
I don't have to go much further than your avatar to see that Dad is keeping his eye on your safety issues. He's old enough to make well reasoned decisions on what you are allowed to do and what he draws the line at. You're safety is monitored much more than you realize. Dad is just brave enough to allow you room to run with your ideas. You can bet he's balanced the equation before you embark on your adventures. He isn't going to let you do anything that will take you from him.... bet on it.

That being said, I still envy you your world and the exuberance with which you are exploring it.

Steve

 

[Brass_Machine]

...

Sorry if this is offensive to some but if you look at the forum alot of it is arguing about saftey.

I don't agree with this... Take a closer look, the big issue that we have been having about safety revolves around the boiler you are building because members do not wish to see you hurt. 3 or 4 threads do not equal "A Lot"

At 14 years old, you do not have the real world experience that most of us have here. In time you will, I hope it isn't bad experiences.

Considering in your avatar, you are wearing gloves and a shield... I doubt your father thinks of safety as no big deal.

Eric

 

[Bogstandard]

I didn't want to cause any uproar with my post and subsequent answer.

What I did want to do is inform members that the safety issue should be theirs and theirs alone, not someone else making critical parts for you.


Ranger, wrong attitude I am afraid, and it is now time to put you in the picture, without destroying your eagerness to try different things. As long as you keep to the safety rules.

What you don't realise is what sort of time bomb you are handling.

Imagine one of your 'toy' boilers, say 3" diameter by 6" long, working at your supposedly 20PSI. To you it is the 20PSI you go on about, saying it is a 'safe' sort of pressure, just because it is a low figure. That means absolutely nothing, just read on.

The PSI means in laymans terms, POUNDS OF PRESSURE ACTING ON EVERY SQUARE INCH OF THE BOILER'S SURFACE.

Surface area of the boiler skin - approx 115 square inches (in fact just over 113)
Multiply that by 20 = 2,300 lbs (over a ton) of total surface pressure. A rather large amount of stored energy to let loose at any one instant. Not a thing to be played about with. If you are lucky and you get a minor rupture, you just might get a bit of scalding water chasing you, if you are unlucky, I wouldn't bear to think about it. So why take the chance. You can't be lucky all the time.

Now you see why a lot of people go on about safety when working with boilers, if you can't grasp it, and play safe, you shouldn't play with it.

We don't want to find out you have had a nasty accident, because you have ignored all the warnings, and taken things into your own hands.

John

 

[zeusrekning]

I'll step in here as a bystandered. I have no knowledge (absolutly 100% ignorance of the subject) or at the present time interest in steam boilers. I have really enjoyed watching firebirds build and learned a lot through his learnings. But they are not a thing I feel comfortable with. And that is something I never can say. Almost everything interest me and I usually have no hesitation jumping into something feet first.
I plan on getting around to casting stuff one day. I understand the caution needed and I want to hear of what can possibly go wrong. I'm not one to sit down and read a bunch of books on the subject. I need to learn from someone that i can ask questions to when I don't understand. I don't know how to contact the authors .

Anyways, Point being....
Steve(Cedge) so kindly, gave my son a small Osilatting steamer that had cosmetic flaws but runs great. I was playing with it and unscrewed the saftey release valve. Needless to say Very HOT water went every where. Luckily my face was not near.


So lets say I'm lurking here (like I did for so long). I want to build a bolier cause I seen a steamer on You Tube.(I would do this). I come across this wonderful HMEM site where some guy is building a 150psi boiler. Looks cooool. No one post, but he seems to know his ****. So I mimic his build. Something goes wrong and I get hurt, my children watching with my wife get hurt.

This is all hypothetical but could happen. If you don't feel a need to heed the saftey warnings, ignore it. You and I are not the only people reading this. I do often read bits and pieces online trying to figure out a subject before jumping in. It is what I enjoy. But there are people who read less. The saftey topics are there for them. For the guy who signs up only to look at the pics (done that too). The more times it is mentioned that you MUST be careful the more chance someone who needs to see it will.
Tim

 

[BobWarfield]

Bob...
Pretty simple... my drill press isn't likely to explode in a scalding cloud of steam if I make a minor miscalculation.

This is my point. The drill press or any other power tool in your shop is just as likely to cause injury, if not more likely because they're being used for a lot more hours. A piece slung out of any kind of rotating machinery may as well be a bomb, it's at least a gun.

You fellas have made your choice about the board, and that's fine. I just think you're viewing a boiler as wildly more dangerous than the rest of what's here on these boards and I'm not too sure that's the case.

Let's not belabor it though. I can deal with putting together my own boiler. I just want a smallish thing to run my little steam engines properly. Something maybe twice the size of the little German toy I had as a child.

Cheers,

BW

 

[Bogstandard]

I won't put this to sleep just yet, just in case someone hasn't understood the implications of home boiler building.

This is from Bob's previous

You fellas have made your choice about the board, and that's fine. I just think you're viewing a boiler as wildly more dangerous than the rest of what's here on these boards and I'm not too sure that's the case.

Just answer one question,

Why do governments of the civilised world put restrictions on the building and use of boilers, and not onto machine tools? You can also add Insurance companies to that as well.

Do they know something you don't.

John