Horizontal Mill Engine From Kit

[zeeprogrammer]

I'm surprised there isn't a place on the side of the headstock to mount a magnet.

kvom:

Maybe could. The high/low gear switch is there...but still. Maybe even the motor cover...but it's a bit loose.

In any case...your tips reminded me of alternatives to what I was doing.
Thanks.

Marv:

If I understand right...the stop to the right is really just there to protect the DI should the carriage be moved too far too fast to the right and damaging something. Considering me...not a bad idea.

But...you seem to imply a (right) stop that can also hold a DI. That would be interesting. Is that what you meant?

Thanks.

If I'm wrong...then what you said is what I meant. ;D

 

[Foozer]

Look around HERE
for carriage stop DI mounts

Here for photo

Robert

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Aha! Thanks Robert.

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Progress!

1)
2) Added to my 'wall of shame'.

That's right. No good part tonight. Almost...right up to the last cut...then fooey.

Took a run at the crankshaft. Kit came with one piece of 1018 steel from which 3 parts are to be made. So...used my new bandsaw for the first time! (Said bandsaw being the reason for the meds the other night. Put it together, bent over to lift it up, stayed in that position for the rest of the night. Dad tells me I'm not a young man anymore. Thanks Dad. Thanks very much.)

Anyway...chucked it up, applied live center, and turned it down from 1" to the requisite 0.187". Now to trim the sacrificial end so it can be bent off. It popped off the live center and the shaft got bent. Aforementioned 'fooey'.

The problem was I cheated on the live center. The part was a bit short so I didn't make a deep enough center hole for the live center. I probably also fed too fast.

I'm also bummed that I still haven't the knack of measuring things right. I tried to be careful when I set the cutter to 1.62" from the shoulder....but no...I was short again.

I have plenty more 1018 but I'm thinking I'll hack off a chunk of 12L14 and try that next. Everyone seems to think its nice stuff and I've never used it before.

I don't know if the part can be salvaged. Whether it can or not really doesn't matter. I want try making another so I can learn how to make it right the first time rather than learning how to cover my boo-boos.

Well...I'm not leaving without posting a pic. It's not part of this project but I made it the other night.

Why did I make that part? Ask Foozer.

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Close to bed time but I couldn't wait.
Hacked off a bit of 12L14, chucked it up, and took a few passes.

1018 vs 12L14...

12L14 didn't get as hot as fast.
12L14 produced a bunch of itty bitty chips rather than long strings.
12L14 finish was nicer.

Now to expose myself...

For both metals I was taking 0.005 deep cuts with a spindle speed of about 1100 and using power feed with 'out of box' gearing. I used an index-able carbide tool on a mini-lathe. (I noticed that one corner got chipped up pretty badly on that last 'fooey' and I had to 'index' the cutter.)

I have no idea what the correct depths and feed rate are. I just fiddled with depth and rate until it seemed to look good and didn't complain. I have a feeling I'm being too cautious. I know some metals like a deeper cut, slower speed...but I haven't developed the experience yet.

Why would I bother with 1018? (Other than that's what comes in the kits?) If I remember right, the price of 12L14 versus 1018 didn't strike me as all that different? But like Dad said...I'm not a young man anymore and maybe the memory is going. Hey! Did I tell you I tried some 12L14 tonight?

 

[Deanofid]

That's right. No good part tonight. Almost...right up to the last cut...then fooey.

Yeah, it's always the last cut, Zee. It'll all work out.

Dean

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Thanks Dean. You must have typed that when the 2nd fooey occurred tonight.

I couldn't help myself...even though it's way past bed-time...I had another go at the crankshaft. I was really happy with the finish...even after increasing the cut to 0.001 (which might still be rather small). Then it was time to trim off the sacrificial bit.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong. (Well...obviously I'm doing something wrong...I just don't know what I'm doing wrong.) Things were going well...then poop...broke in two and the shaft was bent.

The instructions are to turn down to size...then move the cutter to the point where the end of the crankshaft is going to be...then cut in partway. Remove the part and bend the end piece off. I didn't think I'd cut in far enough to be able to bend the part off.

Well on the upside...this is the first piece of 12L14 I've added to my 'wall of shame'. It won't be lonely for long.

Drat.

 

[Foozer]

Close to bed time but I couldn't wait.
Hacked off a bit of 12L14, chucked it up, and took a few passes.

1018 vs 12L14...

12L14 didn't get as hot as fast.
12L14 produced a bunch of itty bitty chips rather than long strings.
12L14 finish was nicer.

Now to expose myself...

For both metals I was taking 0.005 deep cuts with a spindle speed of about 1100 and using power feed with 'out of box' gearing. I used an index-able carbide tool on a mini-lathe. (I noticed that one corner got chipped up pretty badly on that last 'fooey' and I had to 'index' the cutter.)

Tried some 1144 tonight, (tailstock ram replacement) seemed to like about 350 rpm with a 0.020 cut depth 0.002 per rev feed, HSS bit. Doesn't leave long curls, just a pile of little short curled pieces. Faster just made more heat and poor surface finish. 'member carbide not to fond of light cuts.

Got 3 feet of it to make a 6 inch part. Sure I'm gonna use a foot of it to get the speed and feed figured out. The "Bucket of Repurpose Material" is getting fuller

Why did I make that part? Ask Foozer.

Robert

 

[arnoldb]

Don't worry Zee - all part of the learning experience
Can I suggest that rather than using automatic feeds, rather do it manually ? - you will get a "feel" for the cutting that will help you to determine depth of cut and feedrate.

As to that "mystery part" - I've seen that somewhere as well Rof} - Robert also knows ;D

Kind regards, Arnold

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Thanks Arnold.

I used power feed for turning down to size. That produced a very nice finish. Otherwise I get a wavy finish (at best) because of the change in cutting pressure as I crank. It's a cheapie lathe and I'm still working out how to adjust the thing to make it rigid yet loose enough to turn.

I used manual when I tried to make the cut for bending off the sacrificial end. I'm obviously still developing my 'feel'.

The diameter of the shaft is just 3/16". I'm not sure using a cutter is such a good idea to cut a groove so the end can be bent off. And...I think the spindle speed was way too high. Maybe I'll try a hacksaw and slow speed. If I'm lucky...tonight!

But I have a work-related meeting tonight and there's only 4 days left before my wife comes home...I still haven't weeded or cleaned. I am in such trouble.

 

[kvom]

Turning a 1" rod down to 3/16 seems like a lot of work to me. ??? Personally I would just get some 3/16 drill rod. Once you start to make models from bar stock having several diameters of drill rod on hand is very convenient. It's only a few dollars for each from Enco.

Do you have a parting tool? if so, then chuck the rod as close to the headstock as you can and cut all the way through (no tailstock).

As said earlier, carbide likes higher speeds and feeds. Myself, I use HSS on the lathe for everything. If you don't like the finish you can always polish it up with some abrasive cloth and/or scotchbrite. For turning and facing I use the power feed whever possible.

 

[mklotz]

I think we may have another case of dumb instructions here.

I don't know for sure what your engine plans look like but I know that the engine is almost a direct copy of Elmer's mill engine and I've built that. Looking at that engine, the crankshaft is nothing more than a 1" disk on the end of a 3/16" shaft (which seems to agree with the dimensions you've mentioned).

Turning this from the solid is certainly one of the dumber ideas I've ever heard of. Cut a disk from some 1" stock and solder/Loctite it to a piece of 3/16" rod.

One of the first things a machinist does when faced with making a part is to decide whether it should be carved from the solid or built-up from simpler parts. Get in the habit of doing this after you've discarded the instructions.

 

[zeeprogrammer]

kvom: Yep...lot of work. Marv is right about keeping the 1" disk on the end...that's the reason for removing all the rest of the material. Getting some HSS turning tools soon and will try them. More about that in a moment.

Marv: re: 'dumb instructions'...probably. But I have two reasons for staying with this. 1) Maybe the next poor inexperienced soul like me who tries this kit will have seen this thread and learned something. 2) For this specific part...you may (okay...are) right. But...can one say that there's never a situation where this kind of operation is not called for? Because in that case learning how to do it is worthwhile.

Coming back to HSS tools before someone slaps me up side the head and tells me to make them...

When I was learning to become a programmer...I learned how to use the tools to make a good program...then I learned how to make tools to make a better program. It just seems like a similar situation here. Let me learn how to use the tools...with that experience I'll know how a tool looks, works, feels like....then I can make tools. I'll get there.

On the same note...once I've learned how to do something...then I'm prepared to customize and/or go my own way.

Thanks. Sorry if this sounded too defensive. Not meant to be. I just don't want to scare off other newbies.

 

[mklotz]

I can sympathize with your argument that one needs to learn to do various operations and following the book will be instructive for future novice readers.

On the other hand, I want those same novice readers to understand another very important aspect of metalworking.

The advice you get from "The Book" or your mentor may not always be the best way to get the job done. You (all) need to learn what latitude you have to safely depart from the suggested solution (and what other problems may be induced by doing so).

If I were forced at gun point to do what you're doing, I'd cut the sacrifical end off by sticking the entire part (disk and shaft) into the inside of a 3/16" C5 collet with just the sacrifice sticking out. Mount collet and use saw/cutoff tool to make the offering, then face to finish.

If I didn't have a C5 collet, I'd make one - a 3/16 split bushing that can hold part in the 3jaw while the sacrifice is made.

 

[zeeprogrammer]

I made my previous reply at work then went home for lunch. On the way home I was thinking I wasn't happy with my reply. Primarily - I don't want people to stop giving advice or alternatives. I was hoping to edit my post before anyone else did.

Drat. You got there first. Happily, it appears you didn't take my post wrong.

I'm not advocating anyone else should take the same path I am. It's whatever works for them. Which is why I was unhappy with my previous post. Keep the advice and alternatives coming.

As for the 5C...I should be receiving some within a few days. I'll wait to see it but I'm thinking the 1" disk is still a problem.

[EDIT: Meant to add that I'd made one of those crankshafts for the Open Launch Engine. Same procedure. Wondering why I was successful then but not now.]
Thanks Marv.

 

[mklotz]

5C collets go up to 1" in size*. Since the interior aperture is the same in all of them, the 3/16" should swallow the 1" disk easily.

You're gonna love having collets. Used with maximum cleverness, they allow one to do all sorts of things that are difficult/impossible with a conventional chuck.

---
* There is a 1-1/8" size but it won't pass a 1-1/8 rod completely through it. A 1" collet will pass a 1" rod to full length.

 

[arnoldb]

When I was learning to become a programmer...I learned how to use the tools to make a good program...then I learned how to make tools to make a better program. It just seems like a similar situation here. Let me learn how to use the tools...with that experience I'll know how a tool looks, works, feels like....then I can make tools. I'll get there.

This is very true Zee - I share your sentiments 100%. If I may comment though...
My view is that you can only truly get the best out of your tools (or anything you do) if you get the basic principles down pat. And just as important is to keep an open mind as to what you are doing, and how you are doing it, and what you are aiming at. Add to this a bit of creativity and you are unlimited in what you can do. Yes, you will make mistakes, but we all learn from our mistakes - more so than from getting something right on the first try.
Sometimes, going by the book works, but, like Marv said

The advice you get from "The Book" or your mentor may not always be the best way to get the job done. You (all) need to learn what latitude you have to safely depart from the suggested solution (and what other problems may be induced by doing so).

Some experimentation is required - your so-called "wall of shame" is actually your "wall of learning" - every bit is experience earned, and no amount of money can buy experience!

I'm learning in parallel with you - I've "cheated" on the original build instructions on the 2 engines I finished so far - out of necessity, but the experience gained building them are priceless, and I think the "cheats" were worth-while.

Many of the most beautiful engines built by other members on this site were done without plans or guidance - they explored new frontiers, designed and built new engines, and shared them for others to copy and build. Who wrote the C programming language for others to use? What prompted Blaize Pascal to build the "Difference Engine"? It's all back to basics - do what YOU think is best, if it works, GREAT, if it fails, RETRY in another way and use the "pioneering spirit"!

Please accept my sincere apologies if this drivel is out of place and adds no value :-\.
Regards, Arnold

 

[zeeprogrammer]

Marv: Thanks. Looking forward to playing with them.

Arnold: I haven't seen any drivel on this forum yet. (Save my own ;D.)

I think we're in vigorous agreement. Get the fundamentals, the principles...then play. It's too easy to develop some bad habits otherwise. So maybe some are ready to play before I am. That's okay.

I wouldn't know whether the book (or mentor) is right or wrong until I tried it. Don't think I'm trying to follow the 'book' 100%...I have certainly deviated in some things. What was curious to me in this case was the fact I'd done it before...and got a good part.

The 'wall of learning' was mentioned before...in fact I'm going to try to refer to it as just that.
Then it's a more positive thing to add to and you can only make progress - good part or not. ;D.

 

[kvom]

I checked my 5C collet set. The inner bore of the 3/16" collet is .998 as close as I can measure it, so you might need your crankshaft a bit undersize to fit. I also measured the depth of the clamping area as about 1.4", so if the length of the 3/16 part is less than that you'll need another approach.

Of course, your set may be machined a bit differently.

 

[CrewCab]

Get the fundamentals, the principles...then play.

That seems like a good plan, if your confident you can use the basic functions of a lathe & Mill safely then it's a good time to press on a little further, ......... I think I'm on about the second rung of the ladder

I'll be interested to hear your opinion of the 5c collet's, I have been thinking about it recently, a year back I was hesitant to fit any new chuck, but having done a couple now it's fairly simple, just take it steady and creep up on the register, sadly, ........ I can only seem to find steel backplates locally now, I'm sure the first one I turned (about a year back) was Cast Iron, what are you using for yours.

Whatever, have fun.

CC