High Speed Steam Engine

Help Support HMEM:

windy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2010
Messages
124
Reaction score
67
Location
Yorkshire
Have been sent this picture of last Sundays run courtesy of
http://www.onthewire.co.uk/
Probably 130mph plus not long afterwards it went vertical as you can see very little flame when under load a sign of good combustion.
An estimate 135mph when it took off the mods I did to the engine worked but has brought aerodynamic problems at this faster speed something I had and cured when doing 120mph it's a new ball game now.

2015 July 12 Kingsbury.jpg
 

Blogwitch

Ex Bogstandard
HMEM Supporter
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
3,697
Reaction score
676
Location
Crewe, Cheshire, UK
A bit of a catch 22 situation you have there, you need the aerodynamics you have now to get you through the 120 barrier, but you then need to change it by the time you hit 130, as starting out with a 130mph setting might not allow you to get to and through the 120mph barrier.

Can you mount some sort of mechanical sensor on the hull to change the aerodynamics as you speed up even further?

As you can most probably guess, and even though we have met and talked for a fair time at the midlands show many years ago about this subject, I have no basic working hands on knowledge of this type of powered hull, but I do take a great interest in their workings.

John
 

Silvergoose

Active Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2015
Messages
31
Reaction score
5
Windy, thank you for posting, this is a very interesting hobby. Each time I read your posts I walk away with more questions, Can you suggest a site or publication that will start at the lowest level of flash steam power plants? You said that you used a solid lube, what would that be and how does it work at such speeds and pressures? Keep posting, please.


Good luck
 

windy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2010
Messages
124
Reaction score
67
Location
Yorkshire
Windy, thank you for posting, this is a very interesting hobby. Each time I read your posts I walk away with more questions, Can you suggest a site or publication that will start at the lowest level of flash steam power plants? You said that you used a solid lube, what would that be and how does it work at such speeds and pressures? Keep posting, please.


Good luck
A good starting point about flash steam is Experimental Flash Steam by Benson and Rayman the design by Bob Kirtley which is the basis of my engine with a lot of mods that Bob is trying now i.e piston design.
When I stripped my engine after Kingsbury it did do a lot of laps before VTO the condition was as if it been plodding serenely along.
Cam follower a part that takes intense loads was very good.
My 2015 short slipper piston with new ring (gap 0.003") exhalent.
Could do with new gudgeon pin and maybe big end. Making a new manifold as the intense heat when it became an underwater missile hardened it out and it smashed when tightened.

Also after on site repairs the last run the generator burst the new section I had tig welded and joint was OK it was part of the old stainless that had degraded.
the dry moly paste on the cam and follower adheres to them more than the oil, Grathos on piston, cylinder and valve guide are used as I have my suspicion moly at intense heat causes more problems.
The potential for a new record is there but from my experience of my younger days when attempting motorcycle records with my scrap yard specials in 1971 and 1974 you can never take anything for granted.
A long reply for me but will have to get back to metal munching soon as will be going to Newby Hall Classic Car Show on Sunday to drool over real cars not modern tin cans.
The motorcycle speed record bug has never left me and you never know a high speed steam motorcycle might suddenly appear on the scene.
After a local young lad of 85 wins Classic TT http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-22201823 I remember him from my youth there's hope for me yet.
By the way I never believe in luck if machine and conditions correct you will achieve your goals.

Paul

2015_0714manifold0001.jpg
 

lohring

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2011
Messages
349
Reaction score
124
Blowing off is a problem with high speed hydros. We didn't go as fast as you, but we did a lot of testing to get to 110 mph with a similar size gasoline engine powered RC hydro. A quick fix was an airfoil on the front sponson tube. It can be deflected to give down force. Your tubes are short so you may need a spoiler on the hull as well. We used spoilers on the wing section of a sport hydro to kill the lift. That allowed the boat to exceed 100 mph. It blew off at 75 mph without the spoiler. I'm not sure our sponson design would help in a tether boat. They were designed to track straight. Below are some pictures. The last picture is a larger hydro for a 35 cc engine. Note the holes in the sponsons for different positions. The forward position shown was what was used.

My former partner, the brains behind our record, now lives in Poole. He runs a kart business, but is still interested in model and full size boating. At one time he wanted to build a steam powered boat. You might contact him at Bontoft Kart Engines. He is a great mechanic and has an intuitive feel for high speed boat design. At the least, he probably could be persuaded to watch you run.

Lohring Miller

Mike and Lohring 110 Hydro.jpg


Mike and Lohring 100 Sport Hydro.jpg


P1010005.jpg
 

windy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2010
Messages
124
Reaction score
67
Location
Yorkshire
Blowing off is a problem with high speed hydros. We didn't go as fast as you, but we did a lot of testing to get to 110 mph with a similar size gasoline engine powered RC hydro. A quick fix was an airfoil on the front sponson tube. It can be deflected to give down force. Your tubes are short so you may need a spoiler on the hull as well. We used spoilers on the wing section of a sport hydro to kill the lift. That allowed the boat to exceed 100 mph. It blew off at 75 mph without the spoiler. I'm not sure our sponson design would help in a tether boat. They were designed to track straight. Below are some pictures. The last picture is a larger hydro for a 35 cc engine. Note the holes in the sponsons for different positions. The forward position shown was what was used.

My former partner, the brains behind our record, now lives in Poole. He runs a kart business, but is still interested in model and full size boating. At one time he wanted to build a steam powered boat. You might contact him at Bontoft Kart Engines. He is a great mechanic and has an intuitive feel for high speed boat design. At the least, he probably could be persuaded to watch you run.

Lohring Miller
When I had the steamer doing 120mph in 2011 here are some of the notes at that time.
Perfect 1st run, no prop jumping, sponsons just clear of the water. My fastest recorded speed of 114.91 mph. I asked how can I make it go faster? 2nd run going faster then takes off. With the help of FS convert Fred Reeve we repaired it and altered the skeg angle to try to keep nose down. 3rd run it took off again. Observers thought at about 120mph. A new dykes ring had been fitted for the previous Kingsbury meeting but had been unable to launch so think when ring bedded in it went faster. Hull has got to be repaired as it has split.

The following year 2012 canards with gurney flaps were fitted between the sponsons and were an instant success just breaking Bobs record.
2013 speed record increased to 129.33mph.
The hydro has lapped stably at 131mph at Kingsbury many times.

Might increase their area now that speeds well over 130mph are achievable there are other things that could be tried but that adds more complication which might be a step backwards

Paul
 

windy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2010
Messages
124
Reaction score
67
Location
Yorkshire
Moving C/G is not that simple due to engine, generator, fuel and water tanks plus the weight limitation.
In an ideal set up the fuel and water tanks would be at the C/G but then fuel flow to pumps would be limited and these type of pumps would be no use if tanks were pressurised.
Then the boat with tanks at the C/G would make it wider which is a major problem and causes a lot of lift if air flow gets wrong.
Like all speed increases new barriers have to be overcome and all suggestions are welcome.
I would like to do what some aircraft do with there fuel and distribute it in flight to get the correct balance.
No doubt the tanks are a most likely cause of the take off increasing the front canards might help to reduce lift at the cost of drag.
It's all a compromise as the full size hydroplanes with all there technology have found they regular flip.

Paul
 

lohring

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2011
Messages
349
Reaction score
124
What about shifting the c/g forward a bit?
You need to keep enough weight on the prop otherwise the prop lift will blow the prop out. The hull acts like a wing in ground effect. This effect can be magnified with air traps (skirts) on the hull. All Mike's hydros were designed to be wings so as little of the boat would be in the water as possible. However, too much lift or lift in the wrong place causes problems.

The last picture above and the pictures below show his latest thinking. The little outboard hydro below went 86 mph with a 3.5 cc engine. At first it had too much wing area and blew off. The wing was trimmed to give the right amount of lift.

By the way, the rear wing used on full sized hydros for stability, isn't effective enough on models. Another of Mike's designs with a large rear wing is below. It is a 1/4 scale model of an electric hydro that was never built. It was over powered and went over 90 mph initially. We could deflect its rear wing up to 30 degrees with little change.

The forward sponson position helps stabilize these designs. As the wing lifts, it loads the sponsons which prevents diving. The sponsons are actually little wings in ground effect as well. When they lift, the main wing increases its angle of attach to counter. The tiny sponsons also loose lift very quickly with height. Video shows that they seldom touch the water at speed. On our boats only the rudder and part of the prop are submerged.

All wings in ground effect quickly loose lift with height. The problem is the center of lift movement. As the wing moves out of ground effect the center of lift moves forward from around 3/4 of the cord to 1/4 of the cord from the leading edge. This is what causes all hydros to blow over if they bounce up enough. We tried to use the loss of lift with height on 3 wings in ground effect to counter this center of lift movement on the main wing.

Lohring Miller

OB hydro.JPG


quarter scale electric1.jpg
 

windy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2010
Messages
124
Reaction score
67
Location
Yorkshire
At my last runs of 2015 127mph this run was with prop nearly riding on it's boss.

Photos from previous faster runs at 130mph + the prop tip is just in the water and still accelerating.

A new larger wing on front this time (told it would take off) made it stable instead of flipping.

Sponsons are off the water

Bobs large tail fins on his 120mph plus hydro has an stabilising effect on his hydro and reduced flipping with smaller ones it takes off.

Here is a video of 3 flash steamers at last Kingsbury of 2015

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09kV1kxVgHk[/ame]
 

nemoc

Well-Known Member
HMEM Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
121
Reaction score
15
WOW I love this video. Been showing it to everyone I know.
 

windy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2010
Messages
124
Reaction score
67
Location
Yorkshire
WOW I love this video. Been showing it to everyone I know.
Thank you we have to keep these minority hobbies and sports alive otherwise they die.
I have another full size flash steam project in the wings but unless I can sort the personal competition medical red tape sorted out it will be a dead duck.
The help that enthusiasts from my previous life has been tremendous but the modern competition health rules might kill it a thing that was minimal in 1970.
At the moment if I get the medical all clear it might be interesting to pure speed buffs but will not say too much till built if I get the medical OK.
I should know next week but feel doubtful which will disappoint many genuine supporters of my proposed project.
A challenge is what I like and this would certainly be that if allowed.

From Windy a pure speed nut despite the appearance.

Windy
 

windy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2010
Messages
124
Reaction score
67
Location
Yorkshire
Not the best of days at Kingsbury Water Park the water was high which makes for difficulty launching my hydro.
My main flash steam opposition Bob his crankshaft broke and caused a steam generator burst.
My first run looked promising and the valve modifications worked but disaster raised its head and my generator popped.
A spare was fitted but maybe damage had been done to engine or pumps and it was difficult to keep the burners alight.
It's last attempt managed an average sp
eed over five 100 metre laps was 116 mph and one lap at 118 mph.
I had my friend John shoot the video at close quarters in the water and it looks very fast close up but have lost over 11 mph.
Strip down today to see what's up.


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sooiFdfNztw"]**LINK**[/ame]
 

Mark Rand

Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2011
Messages
24
Reaction score
7
Two dumb questions:-

  1. Is the line from the outside of the hull/sponson at the start a safety cutout or to ensure that the boat can't turn inwards after release?
  2. Has anyone thought about compounding a uniflow engine along the lines of the Willans Centre Valve engine?
Regards
Mark Rand (at the Willans and Robinson works in Rugby)
 

windy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2010
Messages
124
Reaction score
67
Location
Yorkshire
Last week spent 3 glorious days at Coniston water speed record attempts the weather was first class.
My model and full size boat friend was trying to break his old record for flash steam boats.
As what is not unusual in most record attempts first time out there are gremlins to sort out for next years attempts.
Even so the satnav showed an increase in the record speed if only for a short distance before the generator cooled. The V twin engine has desmo inlet valves and uniflow exhaust the prop goes at twice engine speed.
We were involved in a minor way with Miss Albatross Gem Turbine powered boat team they also had problems.
Roger my young friend who brought me to the record attempt had to get his hands mucky trying to fit an igniter in the Gem Turbine

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq992YNT9RE[/ame]

Johns engine 0.JPG


JDM 1.JPG


Miss Albatross.JPG


Roger on Gem Turbine.JPG
 

james_III

Active Member
HMEM Supporter
Joined
Feb 17, 2014
Messages
41
Reaction score
6
So ermmmm wow :D Did not know these thing exist in large scale as well, that would be fun project.
 

windy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2010
Messages
124
Reaction score
67
Location
Yorkshire
So ermmmm wow :D Did not know these thing exist in large scale as well, that would be fun project.
There are many engineering potential speed record projects being made in various sheds and workshops in the UK.
Some I have seen being made and near completion one makes my steam model look so tame it's a full size steam propelled machine capable of extreme speed.
I have seen it run just on high pressure compressed air and was very impressed.
When it has been tested on the track and have been given permission by it's professional race engineer builder I will show pictures or video of it.
So watch this space it should if time permits be running next year.
 

windy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2010
Messages
124
Reaction score
67
Location
Yorkshire
Temptation got started in the workshop just got fed up of being stuck in a bed at the hospital and playing with the laptop there.
Would like a lathe with a bit more grunt but will get there in the end.
Just removed the scale off my EN24 T crankshaft billet.
Back in my little heaven knob twiddling again what with the full size project and the model hydro to rebuild time is in short supply.

0013.jpg
 

JCSteam

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2016
Messages
471
Reaction score
129
Wow windy, that's impressive!!! I knew that there was flash steam RC boats, but I've never seen them like this before, fantastic to watch:thumbup:
 

windy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2010
Messages
124
Reaction score
67
Location
Yorkshire
Wow windy, that's impressive!!! I knew that there was flash steam RC boats, but I've never seen them like this before, fantastic to watch:thumbup:
Health problems has raised it's head and will certainly not be able to run it again till later in 2017 if I can improve.
Apart from that there's new cylinder head to make, Propeller, generator and a lot of minor things to repair.
At moment can potter about in the workshop but a bit dodgy going any distance.
I've my full size project that's taking a lot of head scratching that consumes a great deal of time on the PC.
 

Latest posts

Top