Hello everyone, I need some help!

[Aal Rin]

Hello everyone, I hope all of you have had the most beautiful holidays. My name is Aal Rin Ákos (it is a really confusing Hungarian Dutch name) and I am a 17-year-old studying at a gymnasium in Budapest. The reason why I joined here is that I am a steam enthusiast but I need some help, which can probably be only given to me by an expert on steam engines and/or a design engineer. I am currently in year 12, and I have to do a year project, and I have chosen to design and build steam engines (drawing, calculating everything (horsepower, rpm, etc) and building). To be exact, I need to be designing two, the first one has to be the most simple steam engine ever and if I have extra time till the deadline (April) i can use my gained experience and make a bit more beautiful one. Is there anyone here that can help me design and calculate, there is a lot I don't know and I have problems with imagining the valve system? it would be great if we could talk on skype or google meet so when can share info in real-time.
regards
Rin

 

[tornitore45]

I do not mean to damper your enthusiasm, but this forum does not lend itself to didactic. Sure, we discuss all sort of subject and share the common knowledge but what you need is like a course of study. I suggest you take advantage of the internet starting with Wikipedia. Then if you have a specific question everybody here will be glad to help.

 

[kuhncw]

Hi Rin,

You might search for the reprinted book called,

Steam Engine Design and Mechanism, published International Correspondence Schools.​

Abe Books lists the book.

There is also a book titled Steam Engine Design that was reprinted by Lindsey Publications.

Either book or one similar should help you get started and generate some specific questions for the forum.

Good luck. A steam engine should be an interesting project for you.

Chuck

​

 

[Toymaker]

The simplest steam engine, and also the oldest design, is the Greek Aeolipile. Using a belt or bicycle chain, it should be pretty easy to get a minimal amount of power from the spinning sphere. Calculating the amount of power will be far more challenging.

 

[L98fiero]

Hi Rin,

You might search for the reprinted book called,

Steam Engine Design and Mechanism, published International Correspondence Schools.​

Abe Books lists the book.

There is also a book titled Steam Engine Design that was reprinted by Lindsey Publications.

Either book or one similar should help you get started and generate some specific questions for the forum.

Good luck. A steam engine should be an interesting project for you.

Chuck

​

Not sure how it compares to the ones you listed but another is free on Archive.org, printed in 1902 so well out of copyright.

A handbook on the steam engine​

 

[GreenTwin]

Hello everyone, I hope all of you have had the most beautiful holidays. My name is Aal Rin Ákos (it is a really confusing Hungarian Dutch name) and I am a 17-year-old studying at a gymnasium in Budapest. The reason why I joined here is that I am a steam enthusiast but I need some help, which can probably be only given to me by an expert on steam engines and/or a design engineer. I am currently in year 12, and I have to do a year project, and I have chosen to design and build steam engines (drawing, calculating everything (horsepower, rpm, etc) and building). To be exact, I need to be designing two, the first one has to be the most simple steam engine ever and if I have extra time till the deadline (April) i can use my gained experience and make a bit more beautiful one. Is there anyone here that can help me design and calculate, there is a lot I don't know and I have problems with imagining the valve system? it would be great if we could talk on skype or google meet so when can share info in real-time.
regards
Rin

I build a boiler and steam engine for my 12th grade science project, with a lot of help from my dad.

It used a Briggs and Stratton lawnmower piston, with the remaining parts fabricated.
Single-action design, with piston valve.
Very simple engine, and it worked well, but does not produce the amount of power that a typical double-acting steam engine would produce.

Learning the PLAN equation for steam engine power, and designing an actual engine would take a while.

For a designed engine, I would start with a double-action, single-cylinder, standard D-valve with one eccentric, ie: nothing fancy.

I generally start a steam engine design inside the cylinder, and work outwards from there.
Engraving attached of a typical D-valve steam engine from an Audel's book.

 

[GreenTwin]

I am not sure if the information at this link is correct, but they do discuss PLAN.

As mentioned in the discussion below, an steam engine will only be able to produce as much power as the boiler can produce.
Typical hobby boilers operate at 100 psi maximum. I would not go above that value.
.

Calculate the horsepower of a steam engine?

I'm trying to figure out how to calculate the horsepower of a steam engine. With an ICE, the power of an engine's design is determined by the energy of the fuel, the fuel flow, and the engine's thermal efficiency. Is there an analogue equation to calculating the horsepower of a steam engine...

www.smokstak.com

 

[GreenTwin]

This engraving shows some typical bore vs stroke, and some other typical steam engine dimensions related to those bore/strokes.

.

 

[GreenTwin]

A somewhat standard steam engine parts list for a simple steam engine.

 

[GreenTwin]

This is a very simple beginner's oscillating steam engine.

 

[GreenTwin]

A D-valve acts/travels roughly opposite the direction of the piston, and so the d-valve opens and allows steam to drive the piston down the cylinder.
The D-valve reverses position, and allows steam to drive the piston back up the cylinder.

It works the same way as a jackhammer, if you are familiar with one of those.

.

 

[GreenTwin]

Here is an engraving that shows the progression of horsepower for various sizes of bore and stroke.

Note that old steam engines are very conservatively rated, and I suspect the horsepower ratings are continuous, unlike a gasoline engine which is generally listed in peak non-continuous horsepower output.

A steam engine also can produce 100% torque at zero rpm, which also makes them surprisingly powerful engines even at a low horsepower rating.

 

[GreenTwin]

Dave Richards easily runs his entire machine shop from the Orr and Sembower steam engine shown at the beginning of this video.

This engine is rated 5 hp, with a 4.5" bore and a 6" stroke.
Standard D-valve double-acting steam engine, non-reversing.

Old steam engines are very under rated.



Here are a few more photos of an unrestored O&S that is the same as the one Dave Richards uses (Dave's engine does not have an original flywheel).
Very typical small steam engine configuration.
Flyball governor for speed control.

 

[Richard Hed]

I build a boiler and steam engine for my 12th grade science project, with a lot of help from my dad.

It used a Briggs and Stratton lawnmower piston, with the remaining parts fabricated.
Single-action design, with piston valve.
Very simple engine, and it worked well, but does not produce the amount of power that a typical double-acting steam engine would produce.

Learning the PLAN equation for steam engine power, and designing an actual engine would take a while.

For a designed engine, I would start with a double-action, single-cylinder, standard D-valve with one eccentric, ie: nothing fancy.

I generally start a steam engine design inside the cylinder, and work outwards from there.
Engraving attached of a typical D-valve steam engine from an Audel's book.



View attachment 143325 View attachment 143326

View attachment 143327

Yes, you got it: P L A N--this is not what it looks like, rather it is a formula. I means:

P = pressure, L = length of stroke, A = area of piston surface, and N = number of strokes per minute. Notice that the formula is:

HP (horsepower)=P*L*A*N/33000.

if you will note, we often talk about the size of an engine in cubic centimeters or liters, as some engine is 4.2 liters. Well, the L * A, is volume just like a metric sized engine, only this is cubic inches. You can convert it all to metric if you want, any calculator can be programmed to convert. I've forgotten what the number 33000 is actually in what units, but one can figure that out with all the units of PLAN.

there are some engines that are not so straight forward, such as turbines. There are formjulas for those too but I do not know them.

You should note also that pressure is directly related to heat and heat is what actualy makes any engine run (including electric, but we call that 'energy' which heat is anywqay). So when this formula, PLAN, is used, even tho' you are using pressure, keep in mind that pressure is generated by heat and the hotter the water, the more pressure.

I thimpfk it is really great that you have chosen a steam engine to work as they are fantastic things. It is my (not so humble) opinion that steam will make a come back, and we toy makers are on the front line of making better machines.

Just so you know, I suggest you look up "Elmer's Engines" and look for what is called a "wobbler" engine. It is a simple engine that obeys all the PLAN rules, easy to make, easy to get to run and fun to show your girlfriend. If you have time and any experience at all in machining, you could make one of these in a cou0ple weeks. That may include your mistakes too.

 

[Aal Rin]

Yes, you got it: P L A N--this is not what it looks like, rather it is a formula. I means:

P = pressure, L = length of stroke, A = area of piston surface, and N = number of strokes per minute. Notice that the formula is:

HP (horsepower)=P*L*A*N/33000.

if you will note, we often talk about the size of an engine in cubic centimeters or liters, as some engine is 4.2 liters. Well, the L * A, is volume just like a metric sized engine, only this is cubic inches. You can convert it all to metric if you want, any calculator can be programmed to convert. I've forgotten what the number 33000 is actually in what units, but one can figure that out with all the units of PLAN.

there are some engines that are not so straight forward, such as turbines. There are formjulas for those too but I do not know them.

You should note also that pressure is directly related to heat and heat is what actualy makes any engine run (including electric, but we call that 'energy' which heat is anywqay). So when this formula, PLAN, is used, even tho' you are using pressure, keep in mind that pressure is generated by heat and the hotter the water, the more pressure.

I thimpfk it is really great that you have chosen a steam engine to work as they are fantastic things. It is my (not so humble) opinion that steam will make a come back, and we toy makers are on the front line of making better machines.

Just so you know, I suggest you look up "Elmer's Engines" and look for what is called a "wobbler" engine. It is a simple engine that obeys all the PLAN rules, easy to make, easy to get to run and fun to show your girlfriend. If you have time and any experience at all in machining, you could make one of these in a cou0ple weeks. That may include your mistakes too.

Thank you all for your kind words, and guidance. I've ordered the book you recommended on steam engine design, I hope that it can help me. I'll take a careful look at the links you send me, and I am actually already reading Elmer's engines, it is just hard for me to get actually started with designing. With all the tips you have given I think I can finally start so thank you, a lot.
happy new year
regards
Aal

 

[clockworkcheval]

Hi Rin, the earlier suggestion of the Aeolipile machine of Heron is nice, because you can make it with hand tools only. Also the Wobbler or the oscillating steam engine is relatively simple, but needs a lathe and a mill/drill. As for calculations I would not set your sights too high. Efficient steam production and steam engines require pressures and temperatures that are well beyond the abilities of the average starting amateur. For instance in The Netherlands the maximum unregulated pressure is 3 bar or about 45 psi. At these pressures coupled with the losses in heat and thru friction a simple steam engine is lucky to drive only the very simplest of toys. However even that is enjoyable!

 

[Rocket Man]

Steam engines are easy to build all you need is a, piston, crankshaft, flywheel, valve, boiler. I built engine in this video with a block of scrap steel. I don't build anything beautiful, I want it to run and run good. This engine has a 1" piston with a 1" stroke. Valve is a .249 rod in a .250 hole. There is a lot of good information online you will probably need for your second engine. When water turns to steam volume increases about 1600 times.

 

[D and D]

Great sound.

 

[ozzy09]

Dave Richards easily runs his entire machine shop from the Orr and Sembower steam engine shown at the beginning of this video.

This engine is rated 5 hp, with a 4.5" bore and a 6" stroke.
Standard D-valve double-acting steam engine, non-reversing.

Old steam engines are very under rated.



Here are a few more photos of an unrestored O&S that is the same as the one Dave Richards uses (Dave's engine does not have an original flywheel).
Very typical small steam engine configuration.
Flyball governor for speed control.

View attachment 143336 View attachment 143337 View attachment 143338 View attachment 143339 View attachment 143340 View attachment 143341 View attachment 143342

what a great and detailed guifeline, thanks GreenTwin

 

[pat_pending]

Hello everyone, I hope all of you have had the most beautiful holidays. My name is Aal Rin Ákos (it is a really confusing Hungarian Dutch name) and I am a 17-year-old studying at a gymnasium in Budapest. The reason why I joined here is that I am a steam enthusiast but I need some help, which can probably be only given to me by an expert on steam engines and/or a design engineer. I am currently in year 12, and I have to do a year project, and I have chosen to design and build steam engines (drawing, calculating everything (horsepower, rpm, etc) and building). To be exact, I need to be designing two, the first one has to be the most simple steam engine ever and if I have extra time till the deadline (April) i can use my gained experience and make a bit more beautiful one. Is there anyone here that can help me design and calculate, there is a lot I don't know and I have problems with imagining the valve system? it would be great if we could talk on skype or google meet so when can share info in real-time.
regards
Rin

Hi mate thats really cool. Warning, its easy to get addicted to making engines!! I strongly recommend looking at Elmer Verburgs engines. Something like a Wobbler #25 (my first engine is a great way to start). The 'wobbler' aspect means the valve construction is trivial. If you are trying to get enough power to measure I'd scale it up by 50% and get a really powerful compressor to run it rather than live steam. Good luck and please post back the result!!

--Patrick