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justintime

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I don't know if this conversation I found on the net has been posted, so here it is. We seem to be putting the cart before the horse. Why not create a power grid to handle all the enormous electric needs of these cars, then encourage people to get out of their fossil fuel vehicles and into electric cars?

An interesting take on Electric Cars from a conversation:

“As an engineer I love electric vehicle technology However, I have been troubled by the fact that the electrical energy to keep the batteries charged has to come from the grid, and that means more power generation and a huge increase in the distribution infrastructure. Whether generated from coal, gas, oil, wind or sun, installed generation capacity is limited.

IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT BE PAYING A GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE!

In case you were thinking of buying hybrid or an electric car...

Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of those things has never been discussed. All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it.

Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things, yet they're being shoved down our throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.

.

If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, you will face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On a small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.

This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So, as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system! This later "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug.

If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are eco-friendly, just read the following. Note: If you ARE a green person, read it anyway. It's enlightening.

Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine." Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity.

I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 Mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The gasoline powered car costs about $25,000 while the Volt costs $46,000 plus. So the Canadian Government wants loyal Canadians not to do the math, but simply pay twice as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.
I don't know if this conversation I found on the net has been posted, so here it is. We seem to be putting the cart before the horse. Why not create a power grid to handle all the enormous electric needs of these cars, then encourage people to get out of their fossil fuel vehicles and into electric cars?

An interesting take on Electric Cars from a conversation:

“As an engineer I love electric vehicle technology However, I have been troubled by the fact that the electrical energy to keep the batteries charged has to come from the grid, and that means more power generation and a huge increase in the distribution infrastructure. Whether generated from coal, gas, oil, wind or sun, installed generation capacity is limited.

IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT BE PAYING A GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE!

In case you were thinking of buying hybrid or an electric car...

Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of those things has never been discussed. All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it.

Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things, yet they're being shoved down our throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.

.

If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, you will face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On a small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.

This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So, as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system! This later "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug.

If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are eco-friendly, just read the following. Note: If you ARE a green person, read it anyway. It's enlightening.

Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine." Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity.

I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 Mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The gasoline powered car costs about $25,000 while the Volt costs $46,000 plus. So the Canadian Government wants loyal Canadians not to do the math, but simply pay twice as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.
Numbers are not at all correct.
 

ofaf

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If it makes sense, change will come w/o government involvement. If government is pushing it, it probably does not make sense.

Switching to electric to reduce reliance on fossil fuels makes sense if it is allowed to proceed at a pace that does not disrupt our economy. When it is forced by government there will be all kinds of unintended consequences, most of them disrupting and harmful.
 

terryd

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.................. I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 Mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The gasoline powered car costs about $25,000 while the Volt costs $46,000 plus. So the Canadian Government wants loyal Canadians not to do the math, but simply pay twice as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.
Hi Davidyat,

I should check your figures or chase your electricity suppplier. The average cost of electricity in Canada (where I presume you are as you are railing against that government) was $0.179 in 2021 per kWh so your charge would cost $2.87 and your 25 miles costs around $0.206 per mile , not exactly seven times as much. Of course there are few maintenance charges with an EV compared with a ICE vehicle and far fewer parts to fail and replace. No oil, filter and air filter changes etc.

Yes the W in kWh should be a capital as it is the initial of one man's name - James Watt and the convention is that if there is an initial of a name it should be a capital for respect, so Ohm, Volt. Amp and Watt even Diesel etc, are named after actual people so should be represented with a capital. Sorry to be a bit pedantic but I think respect is important.

I agree that the difference in cost between the vehicles is important. If I kept the say $20,000 dollars difference in a good investment account I could get a return of around 5% pa, i.e. about £1000 dollars pa or around $84 per month, this is a cost of owning that EV so should, in my opinion, be taken into account as a running cost.

TerryD
 

ofaf

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Don't forget that around 70% of the electricity used to recharge is generated from fossil fuels. So, when discussing energy efficiency, remember that the energy conversion from BTU in the ground to BTU at the charging station is around 50%. Then, there is the loss from electric to chemical to mechanical energy at the vehicle.

If man-made CO2 emissions are a major accelerator of global warming and an existential threat to the survival of mankind, then nuclear energy is the answer. This is especially true for modern nuclear energy and breeder reactors. The only CO2 emissions-and these are minor- from nuclear come from the mining and refining of uranium and the transportation of nuclear waste to underground disposal facilities. And the electric grid system necessary for distribution of nuclear generated energy is already in place. Also, nuclear waste is minor compared to particulate matter emissions and ash from fossil fuel power plants.

Ah, yes. There is Chernobyl and a few other nuclear accidents involving antiquated nuclear plants. Modern nuclear plants are another animal. Accidents at fossil fuel plants happen all the time but get little press coverage. Fossil fueled plants also emit health-threatening air emissions and huge amounts of solid waste that has required the evacuation of whole communities.

So, I say go nuclear and scale back on fossil fuels at a reasonable pace. At the same time, move at a reasonable and economically feasible pace to wind and solar as determined by market demand.
 

Bentwings

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Don't forget that around 70% of the electricity used to recharge is generated from fossil fuels. So, when discussing energy efficiency, remember that the energy conversion from BTU in the ground to BTU at the charging station is around 50%. Then, there is the loss from electric to chemical to mechanical energy at the vehicle.

If man-made CO2 emissions are a major accelerator of global warming and an existential threat to the survival of mankind, then nuclear energy is the answer. This is especially true for modern nuclear energy and breeder reactors. The only CO2 emissions-and these are minor- from nuclear come from the mining and refining of uranium and the transportation of nuclear waste to underground disposal facilities. And the electric grid system necessary for distribution of nuclear generated energy is already in place. Also, nuclear waste is minor compared to particulate matter emissions and ash from fossil fuel power plants.

Ah, yes. There is Chernobyl and a few other nuclear accidents involving antiquated nuclear plants. Modern nuclear plants are another animal. Accidents at fossil fuel plants happen all the time but get little press coverage. Fossil fueled plants also emit health-threatening air emissions and huge amounts of solid waste that has required the evacuation of whole communities.

So, I say go nuclear and scale back on fossil fuels at a reasonable pace. At the same time, move at a reasonable and economically feasible pace to wind and solar as determined by market demand.
i agree with you ive been on the neuclear bandwagon for many years our country tuns on energy, regardless of where it comes from I see solar farms that have totally wiped it all vegetation excep a few weeds around the edges taking the green vegetation out is shooting yourself in the foot . You have taken a natural material thtst cleans the air completlynoutbifvthevpicture. As for wind farms. Just how do you dispose of tons of carbon fiber blades each is a disaster of non recyclable material not counting all he metal and concrete parts they kill countless birds that eat lots of nasty insects no to mention the scavenger bus that Clem up other dead animals what happens when there is little wind or a storm other way you either get nothing or another mess to try and recycle. Cost? I don’t even want to go there

Gm is about to turn the table on EV batteries with their leased batteries you run your RV until the battery gets to where it won’t charge enough then head to the dealer they install a rebuilt battery and update your lease . You still have to provide charging but you get as good as new battery . Cuts the amount of recycle materials by a bunch . I’ll walk or pedal before I ever buy an EV
 

ofaf

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I had a friend who worked hard and long to develop a method for economically recycling lithium batteries. He was not successful. I'd like to know more about the process GM plans to use to rebuild them. How much and what kinds of waste will be generated and how will it be disposed of? What materials will they need for the rebuilds and where will they get them?
 

Bentwings

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I worked in earlynlithium battery mfg plant it was apparent then 20!years ago that recycling lithium batteries would be difficult at best
I had a friend who worked hard and long to develop a method for economically recycling lithium batteries. He was not successful. I'd like to know more about the process GM plans to use to rebuild them. How much and what kinds of waste will be generated and how will it be disposed of? What materials will they need for the rebuilds and where will they get them?
I don’t know how they will recycle the used cells , but they will remove low capacity cells replace with new and give you a rebuilt batter then re construct your lease. You will pay dearly in the end . Maybe the battery idea should just be scrapped and imbed wires in the road and use induction charging and power pick up that tech has been sround for ages. It was used in the textile plants to operate robotic vacuum cleaners . These simply followed the imbedded wires drawing peer to run them looking like magic I couldn’t believe it when I first saw them they had collision avoidance built in . If you were standing in the way they either beeped or flashed a light .
 

Bentwings

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If they think 100 grand for an EV is goingvto be standard , they better look at jobs that pay a bunch more . Next they need to rethink education and personal development . I see kids running around doing nothing . I was already working and paying taxes by this age I have grand kids who do nothing but play video games . My kids did not get away with this. They still talk aboutvthevtime I took the brand new TV set and cut the plug off then took it to good will because they would not stop playing video games at the expense of school. I was a bad parent. But all of them have good jobs or own their own businesses now and thank me for the push and shove that got them going . I get asked how I did things like this. I don’t take kindly to “no” and I don’t like being forced to accept a decision I had no choice in .
I don’t know how they will recycle the used cells , but they will remove low capacity cells replace with new and give you a rebuilt batter then re construct your lease. You will pay dearly in the end . Maybe the battery idea should just be scrapped and imbed wires in the road and use induction charging and power pick up that tech has been sround for ages. It was used in the textile plants to operate robotic vacuum cleaners . These simply followed the imbedded wires drawing peer to run them looking like magic I couldn’t believe it when I first saw them they had collision avoidance built in . If you were standing in the way they either beeped or flashed a light .
I don’t know how they will recycle the used cells , but they will remove low capacity cells replace with new and give you a rebuilt batter then re construct your lease. You will pay dearly in the end . Maybe the battery idea should just be scrapped and imbed wires in the road and use induction charging and power pick up that tech has been sround for ages. It was used in the textile plants to operate robotic vacuum cleaners . These simply followed the imbedded wires drawing peer to run them looking like magic I couldn’t believe it when I first saw them they had collision avoidance built in . If you were standing in the way they either beeped or flashed a light .
 

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........... they kill countless birds that eat lots of nasty insects no to mention the scavenger bus that Clem up other dead animals what happens when there is little wind or a storm other way you either get nothing or another mess to try and recycle. Cost? I don’t even want to go there
Hi Bentwings,
it is estimated that there are around 1.7 million birds killed by wind turbines in the US which represents 0.016% of the bird population in the country.

However there are somewhere between 100 million and 1 billion birds killed by flying into glass such as glass skyscrapers every year, no one is sure of exactly how many but the numbers are huge. Plus the fact that those same towers use enormous amounts of concrete, steel, glass, copper, plastics etc much of which is non recyclable and of course given the amount of land in the US there is no real need for them they are more of a prestigious project (such as Trump tower) which the rich and Corporate bodies use to show us mere mortals how rich and powerful they are. At least wind turbines contribute to us all.

By the way, insects aren't nasty they outnumber us by factors of trillions and are some of the most useful creatures on Earth.

TerryD
 
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Sadly the greatest threat to birds are cats, both domestic and feral. Millions of birds are killed by them every year. If you have a cat get it de-clawed immediately. Between cats and glass buildings we have lost over 3 billion birds in N. America in the last 20 years. I am staggered by that number. Even the researchers doing the counts couldn't believe it. We are heading towards a huge wildlife extinction just as fast as we can.
 

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Don't worry about EV's their batteries and charging infrastructure as it is just a temporary blip on the technology landscape.

Read below.

I suspect gm’s new leasing plan will lead to the drive in gas station where you will just drive in ande a fresh recharged repaired battery will be installed . Time frame only a few minutes longer than conventional “gas” fill up You will pay for electricity used on your “trade in “ battery “ at this point EV will become more practical. This will create a new style of “ gas station” maybe som jobs . I YHINK I read there are about 800k gas station now so that a lot of infrastructure not even thought about yet it will still cost you 100grand to get a new car but maybe it will be more reliable and durable . My dad told me man many years ago that once you buy your first car it will cost you $100 per month Ill tell my grand kits it will be a factor of 10 more than that , try $1000 per month, so better plan on getting good education so you can get that high paying job . Don’t forget you will have a house to purchase too, might as well start today by tossing x box in recycle bin .
 

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Hi Davidyat,

I should check your figures or chase your electricity suppplier. The average cost of electricity in Canada (where I presume you are as you are railing against that government) was $0.179 in 2021 per kWh so your charge would cost $2.87 and your 25 miles costs around $0.206 per mile , not exactly seven times as much. Of course there are few maintenance charges with an EV compared with a ICE vehicle and far fewer parts to fail and replace. No oil, filter and air filter changes etc.

Yes the W in kWh should be a capital as it is the initial of one man's name - James Watt and the convention is that if there is an initial of a name it should be a capital for respect, so Ohm, Volt. Amp and Watt even Diesel etc, are named after actual people so should be represented with a capital. Sorry to be a bit pedantic but I think respect is important.

I agree that the difference in cost between the vehicles is important. If I kept the say $20,000 dollars difference in a good investment account I could get a return of around 5% pa, i.e. about £1000 dollars pa or around $84 per month, this is a cost of owning that EV so should, in my opinion, be taken into account as a running cost.

TerryD
Hi all,

I hand my head in shame :mad: and have to apologise as my arithmetic calculation was way out. I said that your charge cost would be $2.87 for your 25 mile ride and represented a cost of around $0.206. I'm shocked that on a forum full of engineers it was not picked up that the cost per mile is actually approximately $0.115 not so far away from the cost of gasoline in an ICE vehicle but not accounting for the extra costs of servicing, oil, spark plugs changed and filter changing etc on a conventionally powered vehicle. Fortunately having worked in the auto manufacturing industry here in the UK before retiring I am able to carry out my own repairs and servicing at the minimal cost of the parts ;)

TerryD
 

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Sadly the greatest threat to birds are cats, both domestic and feral. Millions of birds are killed by them every year. If you have a cat get it de-clawed immediately. Between cats and glass buildings we have lost over 3 billion birds in N. America in the last 20 years. I am staggered by that number. Even the researchers doing the counts couldn't believe it. We are heading towards a huge wildlife extinction just as fast as we can.
Unless you are keeping your cat indoors, NEVER declaw a cat, they would have no defenses if you do. But then if you keep your cat inside, why would you need it declawed?
 

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My guess is that the problems of deploying the charging infrastructure (from point of generation to power being pushed into the EV battery bank) will defeat the EV juggernaut.

The reason that I think that Hydrogen will succeed is that there are multiple options to get the hydrogen into the car, it could be produced in small home hydrogen plants, it could be pumped into the vehicles at fuelling stations. Existing fuelling stations could be more easily adapted to hydrogen storage than running huge cables many miles to remote locations as is required for EV charging.

The problem is that we have become wedded to a high energy density fuel system.

What ever happens, the authorities had better get on with building banks of nuclear powers stations because we need electricity either for direct charging or for producing hydrogen.
 

L98fiero

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My guess is that the problems of deploying the charging infrastructure (from point of generation to power being pushed into the EV battery bank) will defeat the EV juggernaut.

The reason that I think that Hydrogen will succeed is that there are multiple options to get the hydrogen into the car, it could be produced in small home hydrogen plants, it could be pumped into the vehicles at fuelling stations. Existing fuelling stations could be more easily adapted to hydrogen storage than running huge cables many miles to remote locations as is required for EV charging.

The problem is that we have become wedded to a high energy density fuel system.

What ever happens, the authorities had better get on with building banks of nuclear powers stations because we need electricity either for direct charging or for producing hydrogen.
Towards the end of providing hydrogen, I recall seeing somewhere that there have been significant advances in 'relatively' low temperature autocatalytic H2O dissociation to produce the hydrogen, I don't recall what that relatively low temperature was but any reduction would decrease the amount of energy required to produce the hydrogen. Home refuelling would still require high pressure compressors.
 

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Home refuelling would still require high pressure compressors.
Honda were playing around with a Hydrogen fuel car pilot programme in California about 10 to 12 years ago and their hope was that one day they would provide a home hydrogen generation plant as part of the vehicle package.

I don't see any reason that this would not work given the will.
 

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Lifetime cost per mile for 3 years driving a Leaf from 2016 to 2019 was about $0.06 using electricity priced about $0.18 per KWH.
Hi DKG,

I was repling to a poster who claimed that calculated costs for electricity for an ev was way above the cost of an ice vehicle. The price of electricity he quoted was out by a factor of 10, i.e. $1.89 instead of $0.189, but in my original post I was embarrased by getting simple arithmetic wrong :mad:

TerryD
Unless you are keeping your cat indoors, NEVER declaw a cat, they would have no defenses if you do. But then if you keep your cat inside, why would you need it declawed?

I quite agree declawing a cat is one of the most cruel practices. Cats use their claws not only for hunting (how many birds are killed by human 'hunters' every year), they use them for defence, for climbing, for sprinting and for grooming as well as being part of the character and dignity of a sentient being. As I pointed out in a previous posting far more birds are killed by glass buildings than by any other cause than natural deaths. about 500 million are killed each year by feral cats, not domestic, but around 1 billion are killed by flying into glass buildings and a substantial number by high tension cables (200 million), not to mention farming pesticide residue in the insects they eat. The number killed in acidents with wind turbines is relatively miniscule despite what the politicians claim - you know who.

TerryD
 

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Unless you are keeping your cat indoors, NEVER declaw a cat, they would have no defenses if you do. But then if you keep your cat inside, why would you need it declawed?
my in home nurse showed me something about cat claws. She has claw caps on her cats . They are tiny little plastic caps that fit on kitty claws. She showed me a picture and indeed you can buy them. I would not put them on out door cat. They need claws for their protection. Just keep them clipped and trimmed. My son has 3 kittys one is a rescue that has been dev clawed one is by far the toughest . If a little swipe of foot is not enough to move the other cats it’s full tooth and kick. It’s like a miniature kangaroo . It got the neighbors dog and pealed it nose wide open so it had to go to the vet. My kitty has her own cat clawing carpet plus the bathtub mat she is very gentle and rarely claws anything else even her toys get more chewing than clawing.
 
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