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awake

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Maybe the ancillary branches could be shut off - - - I had asked about connecting to some more local recycled battery (large automotive size) location but haven't seen any information on such - - - - or is that question also 'political'?
Not political at all in my opinion. I'm with the others that suggest a moderator deleting the political posts and letting the rest continue. Alternately, killing this thread and starting a new one ...
 

awake

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Not your fault, Steve, and I wouldn't suggest that anyone is "at fault" per se - sometimes a thread starts heading in a political direction, just with an off-hand comment, but once started it can be difficult to get back on track.

And of course, I am just one voice; others may disagree about what is appropriate here ...
 
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an interesting discussion is whether it is more efficient environmentally to use a device (like the lawnmower up thread) that pollutes more than a new one but is already built (and therefore has no marginal cost of construction) versus replacing with new. it is more than a dollars argument if you are willing to consider externalized costs, such as the impact on the air, e.g. if your lawnmore pollutes the air, that affects your neighbor (me) and that is a cost which you don't pay but I might (through increased doctor bills or a shorter life). Our "free market" system is not really free, but it's sort of free, and the key defficiency in that is what was first referred to as "the tragedy of the commons". The concept originated in an essay written in 1833 by the British economist William Forster Lloyd, and it is not getting any less tragic in these days. The basic idea is that if something belongs to everyone, it belongs to no one and it therfore is treated as having no value, with signigicant adverse effects. We have seen this throughout history, it is documented in the Old testament (read about the cedars of Lebanon), it is seen on Easter Island, in the extinction of species and in our problems with pollution and climate change. So, if you take your old tool and you factor in externalized costs, it may or may not be benneficial to change it. If you fire up the old hit and miss engine for 10 minutes every few months to saw a piece of wood, the externalized costs are minimal. If you run it 24X7 powering a generator, not so much.
 
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I want to buy a garden PLANT that will grow an ELECTRIC CAR..
to riff on that interesting concept, start with Hieronemous Bosch's Tryptich, garden of earthly delights- add seed money since trees grow from seeds, add blood and toil to represent the labor, the painting represents clearly the marketplace, and the tryptich is painted on wood, so there's your tree. Add some sparks from a nearby tesla coil and the metaphor is complete. and it was all painted in the late 15th to early 16th century. A wonderful piece that you can see in the Prado, it's small but powerful. sometimes it is amazing to look back and wonder, isn't it?
380px-Hieronymus_Bosch_-_Triptych_of_Garden_of_Earthly_Delights_(detail)_-_WGA2526.jpg
 

Bentwings

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Hi,I could go along with that. . As within my own family opinions vary and have a way of getting heated.

This being a highly technical group I YHINK real fact finding might emerge. Most of us have come through science classes in schools so when we see the real facts vs hearsay we can say , you know I was incorrect about that I’m following facts, that’s reality thinking not guessing or wishful thinking . We all have seen the lies and just plain dumb thinking politicians in action . I’m sure there are plenty of use who have been involved with research and development. Here we see tests very well document then retests . A couple times maybe more before a solid conclusion can be made. It doesn’t take long to see our current situation is not based on factual science. It just what someone wants to happen . Well we know that when we can see multiple tests that disprove wishful thinking. . Reasonable people can make the correct choice. Contrary to “ wishful thinking” American people are not dumb or stupid. We all can do even simple math things are just not adding up, subtracting out, multiplying, or dividing. Now we all need to make obvious choices. . Do we be like lemmings and go over the cliff and into the ocean or do we turn around and go for safety.

Ok, ok I’ll put away my portable soap box podium .


Later guys

Byron

I don't necessarily think that an interesting thread should be closed, however I do agree about the politics. Rather than close the thread perhaps the moderators could delete some of the more overtly political diatribe if they have the ability so to do, if not I agree with you about closure more's the pity.

TerryD
Hi,

I don't necessarily think that an interesting thread should be closed, however I do agree about the politics. Rather than close the thread perhaps the moderators could delete some of the more overtly political diatribe if they have the ability so to do, if not I agree with you about closure more's the pity.

TerryD
 

Bentwings

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an interesting discussion is whether it is more efficient environmentally to use a device (like the lawnmower up thread) that pollutes more than a new one but is already built (and therefore has no marginal cost of construction) versus replacing with new. it is more

than a dollars argument if you are

willing to consider externalized costs, such as the impact on the air, e.g. if your lawnmore pollutes the air, that affects your neighbor (me) and that is a cost which you don't pay but I might (through increased doctor bills or a shorter life). Our "free market" system is not really free, but it's sort of free, and the key defficiency in that is what was first referred to as "the tragedy of the commons". The concept originated in an essay written in 1833 by the British economist William Forster Lloyd, and it is not getting any less tragic in these days. The basic idea is that if something belongs to everyone, it belongs to no one and it therfore is treated as having no value, with signigicant adverse effects. We have seen this throughout history, it is documented in the Old testament (read about the cedars of Lebanon), it is seen on Easter Island, in the extinction of species and in our problems with pollution and climate change. So, if you take your old tool and you factor in externalized costs, it may or may not be benneficial to change it. If you fire up the old hit and miss engine for 10 minutes every few months to saw a piece of wood, the externalized costs are minimal. If you run it 24X7 powering a generator, not so much.

I’m having this very argument with my son who has landscaping mowing service.

He just bought 5 new mowers. So I said ok so a big area takes, what? 5 gallons of gas per mower so $5x5 equals $25 gas cost. And each mower runs say 5 hours a property. So what the it takes one hour of weed trimming . Te stroke are not very efficient so figure one gallon of mix fuel each

Now a law comes along and says no more gasoline portable equipment allowed. So 5 brand new 10k$ mowers have to be taken out and replaced with 5 new electric ones . Based on electric car prices figure 50 grand each . Now we all know electric cars take charge time so now the shop needs 5 new high power charging station so the mower can be ready the next day these can cost 5 grand each .

Now we go out in the morning to start the day. We mow the first property but only get had way through and the more is dead, battery runs down . Do we load up and head for some EV charging station duuuuuh . It’s an hour drive then takes nearly an hour to charge . This isn’t going to work out. So what’s the alternative? Finish mowing with another mower? Fine now we have used two mowers to one property we have 5?to do today . Looking atvthe trailer we see. Oh no. Not enough mowers we have to split up so we can get a couple recharged this takes one guy of the crew to go to the the charging station then wait around for at least a couple mowers to be charged . We haven’t done weed trimming yet. The electric trimmers run less than an hour on a battery . Fear not we have at least 20 batteries on the trailer for these . Except the truck and trailer at some charging station. But planning ahead we have a pile of trimmer batteries on the sidewalk . You can quickly see the result. We did add one job . Not high paying barely above min wage as no real skill involved .
A relatively simple operation has now become a monumental task One solution offered. Local power equipment company has just added high efficiency generator . Runs on natural gas available at special gas station. It cost nearly double what gasoline cost. But the station does not have EV power plug ins . The local truck dealer offers a solution. He has a new truck with built in extra battery in the bed for portable charging . He will make a deal give 50 % credit for new old truck on the special. 150 grand less 50 grand for old new truck . Now we can just plug mowers in during the day more or less on the job . So we offer the new guy acraisevifvhecwill manage the charging station and keep the new truck filled with nat gas . I haven keptvtracknofcwhstvelectric power costs but I just saw a comparison of a gas truck towing big Vs EV TRUCK PULLING IDENTICAL TRAILER gas tuck made the trip non stop . EV had to make a charging stop . Cost of gas was almost a wash vs cost of on the road charging . KW hours is very expensive apparently .

It easy to see the tangle being caused here. Wishful thinking vs practicality we haven’t even thought of what happens when these trucks an monster batteries need to be recycled, nor what energy cost to produce them in the first place. There have been countless studies presented on YouTube in these regards Our infamous politicians simply don’t look this far before opening mouth and using the wrong opening to expel waste.

Byron
 

Bentwings

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I’m having this very argument with my son who has landscaping mowing service.

He just bought 5 new mowers. So I said ok so a big area takes, what? 5 gallons of gas per mower so $5x5 equals $25 gas cost. And each mower runs say 5 hours a property. So what the it takes one hour of weed trimming . Te stroke are not very efficient so figure one gallon of mix fuel each

Now a law comes along and says no more gasoline portable equipment allowed. So 5 brand new 10k$ mowers have to be taken out and replaced with 5 new electric ones . Based on electric car prices figure 50 grand each . Now we all know electric cars take charge time so now the shop needs 5 new high power charging station so the mower can be ready the next day these can cost 5 grand each .

Now we go out in the morning to start the day. We mow the first property but only get had way through and the more is dead, battery runs down . Do we load up and head for some EV charging station duuuuuh . It’s an hour drive then takes nearly an hour to charge . This isn’t going to work out. So what’s the alternative? Finish mowing with another mower? Fine now we have used two mowers to one property we have 5?to do today . Looking atvthe trailer we see. Oh no. Not enough mowers we have to split up so we can get a couple recharged this takes one guy of the crew to go to the the charging station then wait around for at least a couple mowers to be charged . We haven’t done weed trimming yet. The electric trimmers run less than an hour on a battery . Fear not we have at least 20 batteries on the trailer for these . Except the truck and trailer at some charging station. But planning ahead we have a pile of trimmer batteries on the sidewalk . You can quickly see the result. We did add one job . Not high paying barely above min wage as no real skill involved .
A relatively simple operation has now become a monumental task One solution offered. Local power equipment company has just added high efficiency generator . Runs on natural gas available at special gas station. It cost nearly double what gasoline cost. But the station does not have EV power plug ins . The local truck dealer offers a solution. He has a new truck with built in extra battery in the bed for portable charging . He will make a deal give 50 % credit for new old truck on the special. 150 grand less 50 grand for old new truck . Now we can just plug mowers in during the day more or less on the job . So we offer the new guy acraisevifvhecwill manage the charging station and keep the new truck filled with nat gas . I haven keptvtracknofcwhstvelectric power costs but I just saw a comparison of a gas truck towing big Vs EV TRUCK PULLING IDENTICAL TRAILER gas tuck made the trip non stop . EV had to make a charging stop . Cost of gas was almost a wash vs cost of on the road charging . KW hours is very expensive apparently .

It easy to see the tangle being caused here. Wishful thinking vs practicality we haven’t even thought of what happens when these trucks an monster batteries need to be recycled, nor what energy cost to produce them in the first place. There have been countless studies presented on YouTube in these regards Our infamous politicians simply don’t look this far before opening mouth and using the wrong opening to expel waste.

Byron
I’m sorry I spent half an hour editing this post . What ever this spell check and context fixer is or does is just a mess . I wish I could just turn it off. Idvonlybhavevtobfix thingsvonce instead of constantly editing . It’s hard enough with vision issue but this is really bad . I hope y’al can wade through this . I spend more time fixing and editing than creating .
 
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So I worked in a car plant where we made a car called a Leaf.... Everyone who drove it loved it, very few had worries about recharging or getting stranded, because they used some common sense to use it for relatively short journeys, like 70 mile round trips (a guy with a 1 hour commute) then recharge overnight. But I would not have one, as my "town-car" struggles to do just over 300 miles on a tank of petrol, but I regularly go on weekend trips of nearer 400 miles.... so need to refuel to get home. The leaf would not get me the full trip out or back, in winter, with all the heater, lights wipers etc. necessary.
But there is a place of battery stuff.... We have both battery and propane powered fork-trucks at work for different applications.
C'est la Guerre?
K2
 

stevehuckss396

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We have both battery and propane powered fork-trucks at work for different applications.
C'est la Guerre?
K2

In the Chrysler Jefferson plant the fork trucks have all been fitted with hydrogen fuel cells. After 8 weeks the construction was complete and I was sent back to factory zero. Having left before production resumed I never got the chance to see how they perform.
 

WisJim

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We've been driving electric cars for 15 years or more, and are currently driving a 2017 Nissan Leaf. We have never had a problem charging as we charge at home, and my bookkeeper wife says we save about $150 a month compared to our previous gas powered car which got over 40 mpg (Chevy Metro). We have enough sense to borrow or rent another car if we have to drive farther than the Leaf can reasonably travel.
 

justintime

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Nice ost at lest a few are thinking of what is really going on. Yes E vehicles are very expensive
Untill Biden and his entire staff getvelictrified then biden has a huge home in delegate yet ionot one solar panel or wind mill. Since he is so green how come he doesn’t have an electric limo and his security cars the mighty suburban s need to be electrified then we can talk but only with science atvtge table This latest climate disaster is not that at all science predicted this years ago that there would be big solar storms that would affect us . All he wants us to keep us poor while they print more money and fuel the high cost of living if he wants green he has to show he cares , show some green grass he takes care of he is like some idiot that just lets his dog run pooping in other peoples yards . Looking at his great record over 50 years of politics , not one thing he has been involved with has been successful . It’s been on Fox News numerous times. Other news forget about them . The administration forgets that electric energy has to come from somewhere …. Yep power plants , guess what fuel they burn fossil fuels natural gas oil and coal. China is just starting about 150 new coal plants using Mongolia coal , some of the dirtiest coal on the planet that will negate everything done in this country . Our money wasted .
Here is a good one the grocery store I go to put in 20 EV charging stations . Guess what. They all have heavy bags over them with a sign NOT IN SERVICE. My sons wife works at another grocery store they have charging stations . She said it costs over 10 times the local cost per KWHOUR to use them . Few get used.


So when operating your EV you need to look at cost per mile not mpg as normal you can or should do this anyway . My big one ton diesel dualy

Has 450 K on it over the time I drove it it was the least cost per mile including the purchase loan of any car or truck I ever had going back to 1960. At one point I had a spread sheet of costs for each car I ever had so I could look at bottom line where I was at in personal transportation costs . I’ve seen a couple pictures of EV with portable gas generators in either back seat or trunk. That shows what people think about these things.


We were talking about job market at car breakfast one day way back when I was starting engineering school coming from the machine shop I saw the cnc machine as the future and automation as the new engineering direction I followed this through the first electronic drafting then 3D modeling and into paperless manufacturing . I did lots of automation too . Now the job market is in for a second revolution. More automation robotic assembly . So who is goingvto design this and main twin this . Forward thinking education will help kids learn this stuff it’s not just guys women can design and work in the shop really old timers remember Rosie the riveter. So just yesterday I heard on news that the job market was in for big changes as we go through the rediculous recession jobs are disappearing already as companies cut back. The jobs created vs jobs lost number is going to really change .
Fox News ? ? = negative truths ! ! 🤮
 

terryd

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....... This latest climate disaster is not that at all science predicted this years ago that there would be big solar storms that would affect us . ..........
Solar storms are nothing at all to do with global warming - which is a fact whether you like it or not. Solar storms are bursts of geomagnetic radiation which normally are reflected around the Earth by our own magnetic field - hence the North and South Borealis' caused by the interaction of the two (that's why Mars is not a viable planet to live on comfortably, i.e. no magnetic core to deflect the geomagnetic radiation). However it is possible that extra large bursts (or 'storms if you like) of radiation can penetrate these magnetic fields but will not affect the climate as fossil fuels do, but they could interferee with or even knock out satellites such as GPS, internet, telecommunications etc, all of which modern life depends on.

TerryD
 

terryd

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Solar storms are nothing at all to do with global warming - which is a fact whether you like it or not. Solar storms are bursts of geomagnetic radiation which normally are reflected around the Earth by our own magnetic field - hence the North and South Borealis' caused by the interaction of the two (that's why Mars is not a viable planet to live on comfortably, i.e. no magnetic core to deflect the geomagnetic radiation). However it is possible that extra large bursts (or 'storms if you like) of radiation can penetrate these magnetic fields but will not affect the climate as fossil fuels do, but they could interferee with or even knock out satellites such as GPS, internet, telecommunications etc, all of which modern life depends on.

TerryD
Deflected, not 'reflected' - sorry.

TerryD
 

chrsbrbnk

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I suppose if you had a really really big solar storm and managed to strip off part of the atmosphere........
 

terryd

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I suppose if you had a really really big solar storm and managed to strip off part of the atmosphere........
Hi Chrsbrbnk,

An interesting thought. Yes I suppose that IS possible but the chance of that is so negligible as to be zero in practice. Mars started losing it's amosphere around 4 billion years ago, give or take a few million according to research by NASA scientists and it took around 500 million years to wipe away most or the atmosphere (so it's not a 'one off' or fast process) - there still is a little of it left and the process is ongoing. Another factor is that the Sun was much more active in that period with much larger and more frequent Coronal Mass Eruptions (the originators of 'Solar storms') and was spinning faster, but now at it's middle age it is much less active.

So in answer to your hypothesis I think we should be concentrating on human activity as the driver of present climate change, we are powerless in controlling the Sun.
 

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Electric car efficiencies are about 6x gas car efficiencies.
A tesla 100 kWh battery car, large, premium, is about 2100 kg with 600 km range.
Our volvo v60 allroad (4-wheel) is about 2100 kg with 900 km range.

The tesla can get charged for free at hundreds of supermarkets around spain (they make a profit at it),
or for free during the day from our 10 kW solar PV array.
About 5 hours at 0.8 cop == 40 kWh or so.
== 40% == 240 km range, for free.
Under 0.01€/kWh.

In any emergency need, the tesla can be charged at 25 kW at home, and will be full in 4 hours.
At peak charge .30€, the cost will be 30€ - solar, approx 15€.
Charging during the night, the EV costs about 2-4c/kWh, == 4 € for a full tank.
Difference about 35x.

The volvo costs 130€ to fill 65 liters.
The difference is 4.5x in favour of EV, worst case, and over 20x in favour of EV, typical use.
 

hanermo3

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Furthermore, re EV, in distress I could charge any EV at 25 kW in any of a hundred points near me in Barcelona, paying maybe 40€ for it at most.
IF the 20 or so municipal free charging points and the carrefour free charging points were full.

So any EV owner does not really *need* their own fast charging, nor *need* their own large PV array.

Anyone buying a premium car at 50k€ and up is losing most of the money over 10 years.
Weather EV or gas.
But a good EV car also saves almost as much or more than the depreciacion in fuel costs.

Good EV cars with a large battery will start to arrive in about 2023 - from about 20-200 manufacturers.
The "tesla lesson" is that an ev needs a large battery.
Short cycling-longevity-thermal conditioning-peak power-etc.
Any EV with a small battery is doomed. So are hybrids.
 
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Lots of debate here.
From my "car plant" experience, (Obsolete since retirement). the Regulations are written so the standard test for driving is the same for wet fuel and electric cars, and hybrids of the 2 technologies. The total wet fuel consumed is calculated to determine the "mpg", and therefore CO2 emissions value from that, but when there is some Battery energy used (as well or instead of wet fuel) then that is measured during the test drive and a conversion from kWh to "CO2" is made according to the latest government figures for "grams of CO2 per kWh" . These Government figures are based on the previous 12 months of burning stuff, (including Nuclear), wind, solar, hydro-, tidal, etc. generation. It doesn't include the "solar panel" generation from domestic homes, because they don't know really what was generated that way. But I think there is some estimate in there...
So ultimately, when you buy a car, be it a gas guzzler or total battery electric, or anything between, the Manufacturer has to quote the "equivalent" CO2 generation per mile/km. And we are taxed on that!
As an aside, I think a human generates around 40~45 gms of CO2 per mile, but the food absorbed to power the human is totally recycled and not "fossil fuel" - so the net effect on the planet in the life of the human is zero CO2. A car at the same 40-45gms of CO2 per mile would be FOSSIL FUEL CO2. - Which is the stuff that will affect our grand-children's lives...
It was just a thought FYI.
K2

P.S. I may be wrong... but all generating utilities must declare to the Government how much fossil fuel they use p.a. - including the fuel oil deliveries for their vehicles, stand-by generators, etc. Hence there is not just the Coal/Oil burned in boilers... but even Nuclear plants consume some fossil fuels. e.g. in disaster happens (3-mile island, Chernobyl, etc.) and a nuclear plant is shut-down, then stand-by generators kick-in immediately to power pumps to cool reactors, etc. to keep us safe.... and these are not small generators. They must be run at intervals to confirm the rapid start-up to full load, etc. so they do use fossil fuel in Nuclear plants. Coal plants have had such things as Diesel locomotives hauling coal from adjacent coal mines to the Power station site, Diesel powered Dozers, etc. to move the coal to the conveyor pick-up points to feed the boilers, etc...
Hence ALL fossil fuels are accounted...
 
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