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I completely understand your desire to have a turnkey solution and your points are valid on being "distracted" by other stuff while trying to learn CAD/CAM. But once you do learn the workflow you will begin to see its limitations. As I am sure other owners have. Have you looked to see if there are any used machines on the market. I can see this machine being quickly outgrown and replaced with something a bit bigger.
I would check the used market and see if you can locate one. Buying one new may be an expensive "Lesson Plan "

I followed the link above and the specs state 10,000 rpm spindle speed. Is 20K an option?

Scott
 
The Taig is available as a "turn key" CNC machine.
5019CNC Micro Mill - TAIG Tools
While I don't necessarily endorse the control components they have chosen or the control software (MACH3 and parallel port I'm assuming as its not listed - very outdated for current machines), it is turn key, the base machine has ball screws and the stepper motors are good, and you could in the future switch over to a different control system if needed / wanted (i.e. LinuxCNC and a MESA 7i76e Ethernet controller card, or UCCNC and one of their controllers).

I helped a club member who bought just the base, ball screw machine and he added with guidance the stepper motors, control system and software and PC for about the same price as the one I linked above. He seems happy with it, though I do understand the reluctance to build it yourself, as he did encounter a few hurdles to getting it going that myself and another club member were able to help out with. Its much easier if you have people you can ask for guidance or help when things get hard...

Mike
 
Scott - from the Carbide website (Nomad 3 - Desktop CNC Mill) :

Spindle
Spindle ColletER-11, 7mm max cutter diameter (collet not included)
Spindle RPM9000 - 24000 RPM
Spindle Motor130W Brushless DC Motor

As I understand it, the original model (Nomad 883) was more limited, and the Nomad 3 is the "new and improved" model.

Mike - I have not at this point ruled out the Taig, so your comments are appreciated.

My general response to the "limits" of a particular choice is that every machine tool has limits, so the only real question is can I live with those limits. The practical answer is always "yes" because I don't have unlimited funds or space in my shop for really big machines. Like a lot of hobby machinists, I have to size my projects to fit my machines.
 
I have started to put together a spreadsheet comparing various options. So far I only have the Nomad 3 and the Taig 5019DSLS. I welcome suggestions for additional additional makes and models, but please keep in mind that I am looking for turnkey solutions only priced around $3k. Suggestions for additional specification items to list are also welcome.

 
The link in your first post had this info

A Big Machine in a Small Package​

The Nomad 883 Pro’s small footprint means that even fully enclosed, it takes up about as much space as an inkjet printer or desktop 3D printer. Our desktop CNC turns your desktop into a workshop.
  • Cutting Area: 8” (X and Y), 3” (Z)
  • Weight: 65 Lbs
  • Spindle Speed: 2000-10,000 RPM
  • Spindle Power: 70 Watts
  • Power: 110/220V, 2 Amps
  • Operating Systems: Windows 7,8.1, 10, OS X 10.9, 10.10, 10.11
More Details…

But I now see in the web address that the first one is just a "Nomad" and the other is a "Nomad 3"
Much better motor on the 3 👍

Scott
 
I am pretty much in the same place as kquiggle. Looking for a good machine to get started into cnc. I was offered an almost new condition Haase Al640 router locally. Seems pretty good in the pictures but I really dont know much else about it. Seller stated that it has sat pretty much since new because of software problems or something.

AL640

They seem to be still around. Any experiences with these machines? I have no idea how to get it running and how expensive that might be but if it is offered for a good price might still be worth it?
 

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Other considerations you may want to ponder:
Ball screws (Taig) versus versus lead screws (Nomad - I'm assuming leads screws because they indicate "New Anti-backlash nuts"). IF you end up using it even a fair bit the ballscrews win here hands down.
My humble opinion - I'm not convinced the DSLS is worth the additional money, as the feedback loop is entirely within the stepper motor drivers. It will fault if it detects a stall, but that may already be too late to save the workpiece or the cutter. (I have effectively the same function in servo drives on a large benchtop machine). True position feedback is better, but much more complicated and $$$ (the reason we don't see it in hobby machines, even $15k Tormachs don't have it). Open loop (as far as position feedback) is absolutely ok, that is the same as the Nomad. As long as you program reasonable cutting paths its going to be great.
so dropping to the machine I linked previously gets the machine back to $3k (spend the $500 on on a decent PC, and maybe a pendant for controlling the machine).

Also, you mentioned in your 2nd post your preference for open source software and Linux. Though Linux is not supported by Taig themselves, assuming the machine they provide is a parallel port connected controller, then LinuxCNC can also be loaded on a parallel port PC and configured to control it with no additional hardware required (if you get fancy you could dual boot the PC and run either windows or Linux).
 
You could contact Jeffery Birt at Soigeneris. He sells Taig and Sherline machines. He also sells a control based on the Geko 540. I suspect he could recommend a system that would work for you. He is located near Rolla, MO. Soigeneris - your resource for hi-tech hobbies. Contact Us

One comment on the Nomad 3, there may be times when you will want a spindle rpm below the 9000 to 24000 rpm range.

Chuck
 
ninefinger - On the software side, I have pretty much concluded that I will have to go with Windows (although I am already experimenting with running on WINE in Linux, but I have an older PC I can re-purpose if necessary).

I have updated my spreadsheet to add Genmitsu on the low end and Bantam Tools at the higher end. The former is less than I am looking for, and the latter is outside my price range, but I think it's useful to see the feature differences for a couple $thousand more or less .
 
The problem is you want to have a decent controller. These are Fanuc, Siemens, Fagor etc. ... however the controller alone usually costs more than a used machine with one of these controllers. I wouldn't buy a 'toy' but thats just my opinion. A decent mill has at least a few thousand watts spindle else you have to take very very shallow cuts for very long time
 
molekel - If I had a spare 15 or 20 grand in my pocket to spend on a hobby, then I would be looking at Haas and the like. Sadly, my budget is much more limited so I have to look at more modest options. It's pretty obvious that I won't be hogging 1/4" DOC on 12" titanium cubes on these small machines, but that is not my goal. Fortunately for me (and I suspect most other hobby machinists), I believe I can still learn useful CNC machining skills on a smaller machine, and also make some useful and/or interesting stuff.

Meanwhile, I am continuing my research, and making more additions to my spreadsheet here :

 
I have no personal experience with their machines, but FoxAlien seems to have some good cnc capabilities at reasonable prices. Here is one of their more expensive systems:

https://www.foxalien.com/collection...outer-machine-vasto-with-20w-laser-bundle-kit
It comes with a 20W solid-state laser so you could do laser etching if you wish. You can also mount a Makita router to get spindle power up to about a kW.

I keep looking, but haven't yet decided to pull the trigger. I have champagne taste and beer budget when it comes to machine tools.

Carl
 
One of the downsides of anything that uses a router is noise, I was helping a guy out with the CAM who had got a Shapeoko from the same company and was running a DeWalt router. Combine the noise one of those makes with the very long run times due to having to use a combination of small cutters and low feed/DOC and do you want to have that thing screaming for hours on end.

Although one of the small gantry type machines will get you a basic knowledge of using CNC you also need to think of what engine parts you are likely to make. Most of these machines are designed for thin sheet material hence the limited Z height which will soon disappear if you want to hole stock in a vice or work on the end of some round stock stood vertically. So how much of what you can see yourself wanting to make will be from sheet?

Then there is the question of material, again what sort of engines do you make? barstock and aero would tend to have more aluminium in them which the machine can just cope with but what if you are into steam engines will it be able to make any parts?

Only you can answer those but they will determine if you need to upgrade to something bigger quite quickly or if it is better to go for a more mill based design that has more Z height and can cope with metal better.

I should also add that I did trial Meshcam at one time but found it very limited compared to F360, again it is aimed more at the "maker" working with sheet than the engineer. But I see that F360 can produce code for the Nomad which I would suggest as you don't want to learn one CAM system and then have to change and learn again when you upgrade to a more suitable machine. Similar would apply to the other options, look into what post processors can produce the G-code for those machines and how capable are they.
 
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molekel - If I had a spare 15 or 20 grand in my pocket to spend on a hobby, then I would be looking at Haas and the like. Sadly, my budget is much more limited so I have to look at more modest options. It's pretty obvious that I won't be hogging 1/4" DOC on 12" titanium cubes on these small machines, but that is not my goal. Fortunately for me (and I suspect most other hobby machinists), I believe I can still learn useful CNC machining skills on a smaller machine, and also make some useful and/or interesting stuff.

Meanwhile, I am continuing my research, and making more additions to my spreadsheet here :


Good morning,

While I understand your desire to make a good choice, your approach may lead you into some inconsistent places. You have three router style machines in the mix, at least two of which are gRbl based controllers. The genmitsu is the cheapest make believe play with thin plywood, clap hands, giggle, call yourself a maker level machine. I run bigger motors on small model airplanes than their spindle. It is dirt cheap, and you will learn a lot if your have never played with any motion control at all. It's gRbl, so all sorts of motion control and cam options are available. I like gRbl on my routers and lasers. If I didn't already have other stuff, odds are I could run my other 2 or 3 axis machines on gRble too. It's really gotten to the point of being a very good product. gRbl is also what's installed in the Nomad you seem somewhat infatuated with. Actually the latest gRbl support a fourth axis, but I haven't played with it.

The Bantam and the Nomad just have too little Z axis to deal with just about anything. An inch of clamping / vise / packing, and inch of material, and an inch of endmill sticking out of the collet. Oops, ran out of room. You're paying real machine prices for for too little machine, better to drop down to one of the real low cost options like the Genmitsu stuff if you just want to dip in your toes and see if you really want to do this stuff.

The Taig and Sherline are both of a more conventional build. The Nextgen Sherline is based on their 8 axis mill, which many have found is great for special set ups and weird requirements, but for any heavier cutting just has too much aluminum beam waving in the breeze.

If you want to stay with Windows the off the shelf Sherline solution isn't for you. You seem capable of juggling a fair amount of detail and inter-relationships of components, so buying Mach4 and a step generator, a Gecko 540 or PMDX 340 sort of driver setup, and three steppers and bolting them one doesn't seem to be anything that would push your limits.

In your specified price range I'd get either the Sherline CNC 5400 mill or as I said earlier, the Taig cnc ready mill. Either way you end up with something you can actually use without having to waste hours on machines that can only take minuscule cuts in anything harder than thin birch ply.

For the Sherline, I'd recommend the 12" cnc ready deluxe mill package A with the way covers, 15 inch column, and the 18 inch table. You might never use all the room, but it's much less expensive to get it that way out of the gate than to buy the parts and upgrade later. This gets you set up with cutters, vise, drill chuck, enough to get something done. $1743.30 plus another $600 to $700 for driver, power supply if using Gecko, Mach4 license and step generator.

The longer table has a secret bonus. If you flip the headstock and column around so the spindle is aligned with the X axis of the base, you set load up gang tooling on the table and have a short bed gang tooled CNC lathe. Takes a little finagling, but it works. You can do something similar with the Taig, but it's a bit more effort to set up. EDIT on 11/14/2022 at 1903 EST Duh... make that the Y axis for a short bed lathe. /EDIT

For fairness sake when comparing to Taig, the base cnc ready machine without any accessories is $1097.20, in the package A base config it's $1392.56

https://www.sherline.com/product/5400a-cnc5410a-cnc-cnc-ready-deluxe-mill-package/#description
For the Taig there are two options. To keep the comparison fair by comparing lead screw to lead screw machines your base machine would be $1211 for a CNC ready 2019. All that's included is the machine and a sort of usable vise like object. Where Taig shines though is the larger lead screws, ER16 spindle, and heavier construction. There is the option of going to ball screws with a base config price of $1850.

Sherline will provide an ER16 headstock on machines at some added cost. Sherline does have a 10,000 RPM pullet set if you intend to engrave or do other things where a fast spindle is nice. My Sherline CNC mill has an ER16 spindle and the 10K pulleys. Not much to do about the lighter construction, but Sherline does have other pluses. I'm not selling my Sherline stuff to get a Taig mill, but I might if I could only have one mill. Sherline's prettier though.

https://taigtools.com/product/micro-mill-5019cr/https://taigtools.com/product/micro-mill-2019cr/
Taig or Sherline would be far superior to the other three you have listed in your spreadsheet. I would not buy either of the makers machines in a turnkey package in any event. Taig is still selling a mach3 parallel port solution, which is crap. Their super deluxe secret sauce DLS is just a single pulse per revolution spindle sensor. Other than being usable for a spindle tach this is pretty useless on a mill without a fast reversing motor as semi rigid or rigid tapping operations are out of the picture. Sherline is selling a silly overpriced driver and when last heard from hasn't updated their Linuxcnc distribution in quite some time. You already said you prefer to stay within a windows environment, so that rules out linuxcnc anyway.

I will say the Sherline motor and integrated KBIC controller is a thing a beauty, and is easily modified to allow software control of spindle speed, while you will spend over a hundred dollars getting a similar set up for the Taig such as the DC motor/controller from Penn State Industried, which I have on a Taig lathe here.

Some Taig dealers offer discounts or free shipping, Sherline on rare occasions puts some machines on sale during a monthly special.

An interesting option, purists will puke and curse me for such heresy: Get you steppers and base machine. Buy an openbuilds BlackBox controller for $220, and a 36 volt 10 amp or so power supply for maybe $50 and get out of analysis and into making chips. If you need more features down the road you're not out thousands or locked into one package.

https://openbuildspartstore.com/blackbox-motion-control-system/
Yup, it's a three axis gRbl solution. 3.5 amp drivers and motion control in a cute little box that works well. Easy support for PWM, limit switches, estop, everything you need for basic 3 axis work. I have one on my C Beam router, it's been utterly reliable and rock solid for almost three years. Bought one on the initial offering deal and never regretted it. Lots of options for user interface in the gRbl world, most work very nicely. Suddenly we're looking at a nicely sub $2000 solution set, machines that can actually get some real work done, and pretty easy build out. There are probably 100 people running gRbl for each person running Mach or linuxcnc these days. It's the default for most of the small diode lasers and desktop sub $3000 routers out there, and there are many thousands out in the world. Including in the Nomad machines you are looking at. It's not hard to find answers to your questions with this set up.

If you like the gRbl aproach, but not the Blackbox have a look at the Sparkfun CNCPro V5. I have one on my larger router. It's estop set up is brain dead and can't be resolved readily without disabling other functions, but I get around that by having my estop in the AC power feed to the entire machine. Killing the juice always works.

https://bulkman3d.com/product/cnc-xpro-v5-spark-concepts/
You want low cost 2.5D drawing and CAM but still commercial? Get Vectric Cut2D. The drawing tools aren't high end cad, but they work well for a wide variety of tasks if you don't need 3D, and their CAM generates decent code for many machines including gRbl, Mach3, Mach4, and linuxcnc. It's around $175. I use VCarve Pro these days, have been using their stuff for probably 8+ years. Simple tools make simple work go easily, just because I have 3D CAD doesn't mean I have only 3D :) Have a bunch of different screwdrivers too! Vectric is very good about applying cost of products you own to upgrades too, so you aren't ending up with dead expensive software licenses when you decide you want more features. You also OWN the software, no subscriptions, updates within a major release are free, and you install it on your machine. There is a license key, but you can install it on more than one machine in your shop. It works with WINE well, but is Windows native. No calling home to the overlords for permission to use what you already paid for with Vectric, very nice.

However you go, be sure you have a real e stop switch that works. Too many small machine builders think clicking the stop icon is adequate. Not if the software freezes and your machine is trying to eat itself or you...

Cheers,
Stan
 
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Stan - thanks for your very extensive and interesting post. I have already read it twice and I plan to read it again - lots of good information there.

A couple of comments :
  • My OS preference is actually Linux, but I also have extensive experience with Windows so I'm willing to put up with it if there is no other option.
  • The Genmitsu is in my spreadsheet not as a realistic option, but more along the lines of looking at a range of machines in which the low end is unacceptable in terms of performance and the high end is unacceptable in terms of cost. Hopefully, somewhere in the middle is a usable machine that I can afford. It may well be that no such machine exists, so I will either have to reduce my expectations, spend more, or give up on the idea altogether.
  • My 3D CAD software of choice is OnShape (free, cloud based, works on my Linux desktop!) so any related 3D modeling I do will be in OnShape and likely exported as STL.
The idea of doing a build does have some appeal to me, but I am also aware that that can be a rabbit hole that will take me in a direction I don't (presently) want to go.

The comments about limited build envelope are valid, and I certainly don't want to be too limited (Genmitsu!), but I am also thinking along these lines : I already have two lathes, a benchtop mill, a shaper, a surface grinder, a 3D printer, and other tools and machines so I am not limited to what only "my new CNC mill" can do. As I see it, any purchase along these lines will give me some new machining options, and I'm used to sizing my projects to fit within the capabilities of my machines.

Meanwhile, I ran across this interesting possible option which looks like both a long shot and worth a further look :

DMC2 CNC Kit (Build it yourself ) - Out of Stock | Shariff DMC
 
That's an interesting kit. Maybe a bit pricey, but maybe not depending on component quality. I like the lubrication system being built in, the only change I might make would be to replace the pump oiler sort of deal with a one shot oiler so you don't have to peek at all the lines to see oil flowing and to avoid having the lube system drain back down between uses.

I like the linear rails although a bit wider cross section rails would be nice, the box tubing on the Y axis appears to be nice thick wall material. It is a wee bit bothersome that they didn't deburr the cut ends of the tubing, might indicate a lack of attention to detail that wouldn't be expected on a machine in this price range. The electronics appear reasonably well done. I'd suggest if you get one bring the spindle leads out of the wire loom a bit higher up, that S curve and sharp bend shown is just a failure point waiting to let go. You might be able to play around with spindle location a bit to avoid having much Z axis extension for most operations, a small thing but anytime you reduce overhang your machine gets stiffer and delivers better surface finishes, all else being equal. With the larger ER20 spindle nose you can choke up on cutters to reduce overhang as well. It appears they are using air cooled spindles, some swear that you have to water cool larger spindles for long runs, but I know folks using air cooled spindles with no problems. They have come down enough in price I may buy one and get rid of the entire g0704 head stock mess on my converted mid size mill.

Clearpath style steppers with feedback are quite nice, not really 100% closed loop as they don't detect actual axis motion, but they will catch a stalled axis and hopefully shut things down before damaging cutters or worse yet the machine itself. They weren't an affordable option when I last built a reasonably sized machine for metal, but I'd certainly look at them today.

Built in flood cooling is a nice feature, and it appears that they have enough flow and pressure to actually be useful, unlike the anemic trickle some machines accuse of being flood cooling. Add an air blast for brass and some other materials and you have a winner. Loc-Line is cheap enough, and perhaps a valve in the coolant line would allow having your choice of air or coolant easily available without having to add another LocLine setup within the enclosure. Speaking of which, the almost full enclosure appears nicely done, at least in the videos I watched there were no puddles of coolant or fluids splashing out. Adding an enclosure to an existing machine can be a total pain in the butt.

Interesting that they went with a Mach3 USB card AND gRbl, even looking at Mach3 these days makes little sense to my way of thinking. I ran Mach3 for a while, like many others Mach3 is why I ran linuxcnc for years. Their controller card, while custom, is set up with terminals for control and step/direction signals so setting up with Mesa cards and linuxcnc or even just a plain old parallel port with linuxcnc would be straight forward. So would adding a Mach4 or UCCNC step generator if you wanted to go that way. I like options.

The probing is a bit odd, with a touch probe for X/Y, but a hockey puck to cutter probe for Z, just as often seen on routers. gRbl probing can be interesting, I think Mach3 probe support may be a bit better, Mach4 probe support is better than gRbl last time I looked.

The youtube videos showing feeds and speeds are fairly interesting, it looks like the person / people building this machine actually have a clue about their business. I liked that they paid attention to MRR as well as just how fast they can sling an axis around.

Interesting enough machine that I went and watched some of their videos even though I'm not shopping. I'd say this is the machine Carbide is trying to get people to think the Nomad is, with a large enough work area to be useful and enough Z axis height to actually use some real end mills. Enough spindle power to run 1/4 inch end mills fairly hard or a 1/2 inch shank shear hog for facing and rapid removal. Not going to have much luck running a shear hog on a Taig or Sherline. I'm liking what I've seen of it so far. I'd certainly be inclined to go with this machine over a Sherline Nextgen machine. True, it does mean having to suppress my fetish for daylight under the spindle a bit, but you won't get the material removal rates on a Taig, Nextgen or a Sherline 5400 mill you see them achieving with this machine.

Bonus point: If you're running gRbl, there are lots of good user interfaces for linux. Like you, I view windows as an occasionally required environment. Whenever I don't HAVE to use it, I'm on a linux box too.

Cheers,
Stan
 
I am with Stan, the DMC2 kit looks pretty good.
I know it was one thing you wanted to avoid, but building/assembling it will give you intimate knowledge of how it is put together and will really speed up any maintenance and or troubleshooting that may come down the road.

Scott
 
The DMC2 kit does look interesting, although I have some concerns about ordering a from what looks to be a near start-up operation. There is a sub-reddit that is worth looking at for anyone interested in more information on this:

r/shariffdmc

I'm OK with a kit build (in fact I enjoy the experience) where in theory the kinks have been worked out and the system has been de-bugged. Ansd I agree that building a kit gives you very useful knowledge - I bought my Prusa MK3S 3D printer as a kit for that reason (among others).
 
The DMC2 kit does look interesting, although I have some concerns about ordering a from what looks to be a near start-up operation. There is a sub-reddit that is worth looking at for anyone interested in more information on this:

r/shariffdmc

I'm OK with a kit build (in fact I enjoy the experience) where in theory the kinks have been worked out and the system has been de-bugged. Ansd I agree that building a kit gives you very useful knowledge - I bought my Prusa MK3S 3D printer as a kit for that reason (among others).
Looks like my comment about tube ends not being deburred being a wee bit bothersome was overly positive doesn't it? I was wondering about the rail mounting surfaces, but from the videos it appeared that all was well. Promising design, but it seems there are quite a few folks with a poor experience.

Oh well, time to drop back to proven solutions I guess.

Good catch kquiggle!

Stan
 
Hi Folks,

As a follow on the the gRbl part of this thread, I just got notice that OpenBuilds has releases a BlackBox controller version built around the ESP32 WROOM32D chipset. Probably as a response to the Sparkfun CNCPro V5. So there are two close to turnkey controller driver gRbl options with 32 bit dual core processors now, just add power supplies and some wiring. The ESP32 is a pretty nice controller, far higher performance than the Arduino based grbl boards. I have a couple ESP32 WROOM32 cards in stock for playing with, so far they are just silly fast for a tiny cheap embedded controller solution with lots of I/O and networking features. Once winter takes hold here I might just see if I can get a nice laser controller going on one of these little beasts, although I'll likely still drive it with Lightburn.

Cheers,
Stan
 

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