Cheap imported hit-miss engine

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DJoksch

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I bought one of these cheap hit-miss engines from China for fun. Water from the hopper leaks around the pressed in cylinder as it runs. The piston rod bounces from side to side on the crank shaft. Kinda rattles, but it runs and the problems can be corrected. For the price I can’t complain.
 
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iamross04

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Carbureted hit and miss engines have very low efficiency. All those revolutions sucking in air and fuel without producing work are just about the worst thing you can do for efficiency. I too purchased one from Alibaba, by far it has not troubled me yet, but who knows.
 

GreenTwin

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I saw a discussion about this or a similar engine, perhaps somewhere on this forum.
Passions seem to run high about whether these engines are a good or bad thing.

I think it boils down to: If you like it, it is a good thing.
And if others don't like it, it is a bad thing, but a bad thing to them, not you.

I considered purchasing one, since they seem to run right out of the box, but I know if I ever bought a ready-made hit-and-miss engine (used or new), then I would get lazy and never build my own.

I am working on a scaled Galloway 7 hp, and while many have said "that model is already offered in several scales", I have not seen a casting kit that is true to the original engine in every way, and thus the reason I am going to cast my own.

I see more and more of this style of engine (ready-to-run) in various horizontal and vetical configurations, and for someone who does not have any machine tools, and does not want to purchase machine tools, this is one way to get into the hobby, and infinitely cheaper than purchasing a mill, lathe and tooling (depending on how many engines you buy I guess).

I wish they were cast and sold locally though; that would be nice.
Our technology seems be getting exported elsewhere, and all the manufactured goods have to be imported; not really a good situation in my opinion.

.
 

James Barker

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I purchased one and am pleased with it although some of the tolerances are a bit too loose for my taste, it runs like a treat. I have taken it completely apart and have devised ways of tightening the running clearances. These models are good entry level items that will provide hours of enjoyment. My opinion is this, if it does not meet ones specs or expectations, fix it or sell it off to someone better suited to fix the shortcomings. Their cost is quite appealing.

BC1
Jim
 

scottyp

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I have been flying RC planes less and less so I sold some extra stuff and had a few bucks burning a hole in my pocket. I was surprised to see all of the copied homebuilt engines being sold on bang, ali and the like. I ordered the kerz version and it is what it is, but really runs well. I wasn’t expecting a super precision machine but I think it is a bit loose to make it easy to make and easy for people the get it running. I mainly bought it to see and learn the ways of hit and miss engines and I’ve enjoyed tuning on it and getting it to run nice and slowly. I haven’t taken a kerzlel off of my long list of projects.
 

GreenTwin

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I have been flying RC planes less and less so I sold some extra stuff and had a few bucks burning a hole in my pocket. I was surprised to see all of the copied homebuilt engines being sold on bang, ali and the like. I ordered the kerz version and it is what it is, but really runs well. I wasn’t expecting a super precision machine but I think it is a bit loose to make it easy to make and easy for people the get it running. I mainly bought it to see and learn the ways of hit and miss engines and I’ve enjoyed tuning on it and getting it to run nice and slowly. I haven’t taken a kerzlel off of my long list of projects.
That was one of my thoughts, ie: buy a ready-made engine just to get my feet wet with an IC engine before I started trying to built one.

Seems like I have seen a video of this type of engine being built, but I can't recall if it was CNC, or not.
My guess is CNC.
There was a table full of them, and a woman was doing something to each block.
I will look for that.

Labor cost seems to be what is driving things offshore.

I also think the long term trend may be much higher quality engines in the future, but I am not positive of that.
The Japanese back in the 50's had a lot of trouble with substandard parts/equipment, and the things they sold in the 50's were generally considered cheap junk.
Now I consider most of the Japanese made things to be the gold standard.
I have noticed that the trend seems to be Japan farming out their manufacturing to others, and I guess that is ok if quality control does not suffer.

There are several hurdles to be overcome when manufacturing things, and those are as follows:
1. Find a design to copy/use.
2. Figure out how to make something.
3. Figure out the metalurgy so the equipment is long lasting.
4. Maintain quality control during the manufacturing process.
5. Produce consistent quality parts/equipment over long periods of time.
6. Learn to do your own design.

The #1 complaint I hear about parts/equipment outsourced to some asian suppliers is that the quality control is poor.
The guy who runs Prusa (the 3D printer company) says that perhaps 60% of the time spent making his printer comes from checking the parts that are made elsewhere, and there are great variations in size, with many rejects.

There is a video out there of a guy who wanted to get bicycles produced in asia, and he goes through the trials and tribulations of trying to find a company in asia to make them, while maintaining price and quality.
His story is a case study of trying to avoid 1000 perils, and not go broke in a year (like running through an unmarked minefield; every step may be your last).

I read a casting magazine, and they mention many are re-shoring their products.
What happens is that someone here sends drawings to Asia.
The asians make the tooling required to make a product, and begin manufacturing that product, at a very reasonable price.
Not too much later, an almost identical product appears on Amazon at 1/2 of your price.
You go out of business, and your tooling now basically belongs to some other country/people.

The successful casting folks are bringing their products back stateside, redesigning the parts to make then superior to anything on the market, creating new tooling to make the product, and then selling a high grade superior product that YOU own the tooling for, a product that you own, and a superior consistent high quality part that people want/need.
Foundries report that people are willing to pay a premium for high quality parts, because downtime on equipment can be so expensive, and in the end the most expensive high quality part may be the least expensive option from an operational standpoint.

Some of asia seems to be about halfway down the list above.
Mastering and maintaining the remaining items on the list will be very difficult and perhaps impossible for many parts of asia (I won't mention any names).

The other thing I have heard is that business law suffers in some asian countries.
You agree to get X number of parts made, at Y dollars, but then your parts get sent to a government warehouse, where you have to pay what basically amounts to an extortion fee to ship your product.
You may get extorted at multiple levels before you actually get your product, and you many have to toss 60% of your product due to low quality.

Total manufacturing costs, and consistent quality are what determine the final cost of a product.

I suspect that some asian countries are selling products at cost, and being subsidized by their government, with the intent of capturing the market, forcing US and other manufacturers out of business, and then owning the market and products.
From this aspect, I think asia is winning on most (but not all) fronts, but this is not really a sustainable effort, and this does not really provide high quality products either in most cases.
Anyone who cannot learn how to design products will be limited to producing either substandard products, or limited to copying someone elses design. We need more protection in this country from copyright/patent violations.

This is my blog for the day.
Back to the grindstone.

.
 
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Jeffro

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How they build them in China.
It is usual to see a fair amount of clearance with needle roller bearings but this seems a little generous !!
This engine actually runs well, got to luv the rattles.


 

Steamchick

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Interesting commentary on "the Asian manufacturing / business strategy". I worked for Nissan - the Japanese car maker we love to ignore...
I didn't really know much about the company until I joined, and we were taught the company history. A guy in Japan (1930s) wanted to sell stuff to make a living... so bought some Austin 7 cars from the UK and had them shipped to Japan.... then got 3 banks (with Initials N, I, S) to loan him some money to set up a company asssembling cars from imported Austin parts... Then he made some parts himself... Started changing it to make it "more Japanese friendly".. Sold lots more, and improved it where there were faults - and expanded this and into other related businesses. So he set-up a dedicated Car maker (The banks' initial this time were D, A, T !) and eventually made the company the 4th largest car maker on the planet. And I didn't know much about them - except for being "reliable, rust-bucket imports" from the1970s.... Cheap to buy, radios included, rusted in 5 years, but cheap to buy the next (better) version. Attitudes were "it couldn't beat a Ford or British car, with cheap spares and things you could fix when it broke down". But the bloke in work who bought one didn't break down...
Actually, the Japanese "learned their trade" from the Brits, Germans and Americans.... just adding a pinch of their own logic. And look how successful they have become. Now China is evolving the same way.... (But didn't we all evolve that way in Industry in the first place?).
So I suggest we "live and let live" and buy what we can afford and we all get more or less the "same quality per dollar" eventually.
I have bought "cheap" stuff sourced from China and USA when exchange rates have favoured those markets - and my wallet. But my heart says "No! - Buy British!" - yet that isn't always possible...
But some will disagree...
K2
 

GreenTwin

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I worked for a consulting firm years ago, and we got a project to build a small factory for the Japanese.
Those folks were the most driven people I have met in my lifetime, and not even a little bit pleasant to work with.
I would never make the mistake of working with the Japanese again, but I do understand why they are so driven; they have to complete with the whole world, and import everything. Not much excuse for them being A-hats though.

Worked on a project for two large german manufacturing plants here in the states.
The Germans were very friendly from the top most people down to the common worker.
You could walk right into the plant managers office at any time (1 million sq. ft. plant), and he had the same blue shirt with his name on it as the janitor sweeping the floor nearby.
We had to learn some german in order to read their drawings, and that was no problem.

Both 1 million sq. ft. german plants have gone out of business.
The Japanese plant I worked on nearby is still in business.

One story I heard of recently was about an auto seatbelt test, and I think it was a Toyota seatbelt failed twice in 100,000 operations, but passed the test with flying colors. Toyota sent engineers to figure out what happened, and redesigned the seatbelt so that it had zero failures in 100,000 operations. I think this is a true story, but even if not, it does illustrate how driven some (not all) of the Japanese designers/manufactuers are.

I am somewhat driven myself, and people criticize me for trying to make everything "perfect".
For me, it is not about making things perfect (or offering perfect services), but about improving things in a continuous fashion over time.

The Chinese can and do make high quality products, but they also make a lot of low quality products.
Only time will tell if the Chinese become as good as the Japanese, but the Chinese are definitely not the Japanese, and the cultures are very different.

I personally would like to see more things manufactured in the UK and the US, but that is not the trend.
I try to buy things made locally in the States if possible, and will pay a premium for State-made products as long as the quality is good.

Edit:
I own a number of Japanese motorcycles, and I would not buy any other type (unless I came across a good original Norton 850 Commando or something).
That being said, I would not want to work with or for a Japanese motorcycle company.


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GreenTwin

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Not to bash the Japanese, I greatly admire their design capabilities and skills, but the ones I have met are rather terse people, and that is putting it mildly.
I was reading a book about WWII, and they sent out some Japanese midget subs to make an attack.
One guy wrote in the book that the only reason he survived the war was because the propeller shaft sheered off before his sub could get very far.
The captain of his ship expressed his displeasure by saying "If your propeller shaft shaft breaks, you reach back and turn it with your bare hands.......there is no reason for failure !!!"

And that is kind of how I remember the Japanese folks I worked with; they were by far the most intense people I have ever dealt with.
But I do buy a lot of Japanese stuff due to the quality.
I don't have to like them, but I do respect and admire the quality of their workmanship.
Sort of a love/hate relationship I guess.
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Steamchick

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I have met and worked with good guys and bad guys of many natonalities and cultures.... usually the good guys are "low stress" - well capable of handling the situation and glad to improve things. But the bad guys tend to be "highly stressed" - not completely able or capable of resolving all the issues at hand and therefore their stress reflects on their interpersonal skills. In that respect I have been both the good guy and the bad guy.... but that is people.
And without prejudice, all nations and cultures have their foibles - which suit us or we hate. Often their products reflect their business strategy, and whether they are good guys or bad guys....
Funny how crooks and corruption are on the increase, versus the hard working straight guys.... but so is quality versus cost.
Beats me.
K2
Society is a wierd thing....
 

DJoksch

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I did not pay much for the little engine so it met me expectation. The biggest problem is that the connecting rod bearing halves only cover two thirds of the crank throw and it is beating itself to death. Easy enough to fix. The cylinder is pressed into the block and the is backing out. Also easy to fix, when you own a lathe and mill. I do see a quality drop in manufacturing here in the US. My favorite buzz line is “Best in initial quality”. I read this to mean that it falls apart shortly afterwards. Plastic is amazing stuff.
 

mcostello

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MIL bought a new Ford Grenada. Rear bumper is crooked by 1/4". Many faults, beached in the barn with 28000 miles on it. She is fond of telling Me "Ford compared it to a Mercedes." You will not here Mercedes comparing itself to Ford. The only thing in common is They both have 4 tires.
 

animal12

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do you have a link for where you get the engine ?
thanks
animal
 
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They say 'never let the truth get in the way of a good story' (bit like the fairytale of verfiying that piston rings rotate in operation (which does not/cannot happen), by looking for oil particles in the exhaust ??), and in the age of the internet where information is so easy to verify one should take extra care when creating a story , this comes from NISSAN's own website , and concurred with NISSAN's wiki entry as follows : in 1928 when NIHON SANGYO listed on the tokyo stock exchange its ticker name was listed as 'NISSAN' (pretty obvious really) , in 1930 when nissan founder Yoshisure Aikawa merged tobata casting with DAT motors , as tobata was a nissan company this merger began auto manufacturing under the name of NISSAN
 

ShopShoe

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Aha, I think I now know where "Datsun" came from. Anybody know why they started marketing the cars as "Nissan" instead of that name? (1970s or 80s?)

--ShopShoe
 

MRA

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Because Datsuns had acquired a reputation for rust second only to Alfa Romeo? :)

Amazingly there's one around here on the road on a 'T', so about 1979. Judging by the holes in it, I think it may be relying on the 'no MOT for 40+ 'historic' vehicles' regulations we now enjoy!
 

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