Any large agricultural tyre supplier should have them, these people have tyres from 6" to 55" rim diameters
https://www.farmtyres.co.uk/tractor
https://www.farmtyres.co.uk/tractor
Casting Kits I would like to see For Sale Again
- Thread starter GreenTwin
- Start date
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krypto
Well-Known Member
Rich Dosdall's incredible Oliver 1655 tractor is described here:
https://craftsmanshipmuseum.com/artisan/richard-dosdall/richard-dosdalls-1-2-scale-oliver-tractor/
and
Also in Model Engine Builder #39.
I chatted with that guy for a long time, but I can't recall what he said about the tires.
He had some great foundry photos of them pouring the various parts.
And that tractor ran for much of the show.
Stellar piece of work for sure.
Edit:
Really good lesson in pattern making too.
.
peterl95124
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2020
- Messages
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- 257
this thread started out as an important issue, how to keep casting kits alive after the original maker passes away, but has been hijacked into how hard casting is (don't care, those who want to cast will figure it out, its been done before, it will get done again), and who wants what size of engine (don't care, those who really want larger or smaller engines can do their own rescaling), not strictly relevant
digital media are certainly not stable, floppy disks are essentially unreadable now and the same will eventually be true of CDs, but the internet itself (ie cloud storage) is technology agnostic and our entire society is built around it being continually maintained, so is reliable (until the collapse of western civilization, after which model engine building won't be very easy anyway), an example of how good cloud storage is is that google-books has stuff from the 1800's that you can't in general see any other way (this is how I got plans for the Muncaster #9 Joys Valve steam engine, and also drawings for the original full size Van Vleck Triple Expansion steam engine but without the dynamos)
I'd like to see a museum where original patterns are kept, and digitized, and the data freely available for download, then folks can 3-D print new patterns and make their own castings and/or send them away to a foundry. the museum could also hold old magazines, for example back issues of StrictlyIC are no longer available until the current copyright owner decides what to do with them, but this is what I think should happen to them.
an example of the sort of issues involved is that for example this website has a files section that can (does!) hold this kind of data, but this website is at the mercy of its owner who might someday decide its not worth his time/effort/trouble to maintain, what then ? a similar concern can be raised regarding Joe Martin's Craftsmanship Museum. and I hear rumors that Stuart Models Inc has changed hands a couple times recently, what if they go out (how to avoid what I see as the ensuing catastrophe of their castings no longer being available (sorry PMResearch, your casting are good but your styling isn't, IMHO !)). so I guess the question is how can something be set up so that it will be run in perpetuity
thoughts ?
comments ?
questions ?
digital media are certainly not stable, floppy disks are essentially unreadable now and the same will eventually be true of CDs, but the internet itself (ie cloud storage) is technology agnostic and our entire society is built around it being continually maintained, so is reliable (until the collapse of western civilization, after which model engine building won't be very easy anyway), an example of how good cloud storage is is that google-books has stuff from the 1800's that you can't in general see any other way (this is how I got plans for the Muncaster #9 Joys Valve steam engine, and also drawings for the original full size Van Vleck Triple Expansion steam engine but without the dynamos)
I'd like to see a museum where original patterns are kept, and digitized, and the data freely available for download, then folks can 3-D print new patterns and make their own castings and/or send them away to a foundry. the museum could also hold old magazines, for example back issues of StrictlyIC are no longer available until the current copyright owner decides what to do with them, but this is what I think should happen to them.
an example of the sort of issues involved is that for example this website has a files section that can (does!) hold this kind of data, but this website is at the mercy of its owner who might someday decide its not worth his time/effort/trouble to maintain, what then ? a similar concern can be raised regarding Joe Martin's Craftsmanship Museum. and I hear rumors that Stuart Models Inc has changed hands a couple times recently, what if they go out (how to avoid what I see as the ensuing catastrophe of their castings no longer being available (sorry PMResearch, your casting are good but your styling isn't, IMHO !)). so I guess the question is how can something be set up so that it will be run in perpetuity
thoughts ?
comments ?
questions ?
I'm not quite sure what the thread started out as. Over half those engines Pat lists have never even been available as casting kits , several others can still be had like the Cretors and there are several bottle engines, even large ones to be had.
As for the "casting bank" it sounds a good idea but how practical would it be. Taking a couple of engines that have been discussed in this thread as examples.
The Galloway either just the 1/3rd scale version Pat mentions or all 4 scale options. The drawings had been updated at cost by Doug at Ministeam but I know he has said that the patterns also needed a lot of reworking or completely remaking for some parts. In several cases he was just selling inventory bought at the time the rights, drawings, patterns etc were purchased and never go a full set cast. So even if they could be scanned they would not be usable without reworking the files.
Todd has mentioned that he got the rights to the small New Holland but the patterns were lost. This seems quite common when things are sold during the clearing of someones estate as the relatives may knot know where the patterns are or they could be at the last foundry that was used. Even with patterns that can be kept track of some go missing so the set may not be complete, I've some to make in the next week or two to replace some lost ones and it's not the first time I have done that. So with missing or non existent patterns at best there would only be partial sets available to download.
Cost also has to be taken into account, No doubt Todd had to pay something for the New Holland and has said as part of the deal he has to make a number of engines. Doug was looking for very high amounts of money when he was selling off his patterns so who covers those costs. Then add to that the cost of scanning in all the patterns if they can be obtained and the chances of being able to freely obtain a download are not going to cover museums cost.
As pat is currently posting once you have your free files you are going to need a printer big enough to print them as joining together is not ideal particularly if having to farm out the casting. Not all builders are able to use CAD and slicer programmes or have a 3D printer.
One point that was covered earlier in the thread is that a lot of these kits become unavailable when the supplier has problems with finding a foundry(S) to do the casting so even less hope for the individual who just wants a few castings done.
Todd has also mentioned that the kits that were available in the past would not be upto the standards that many want today. I suppose those with the ability to do the CAD work to modify the file sand update the drawings may find the bank useful but others may not be happy with what is on offer. Many of the engines I make I add a lot more detail that may have been present if it were once a kit, the internet now makes it easier to look at images of the full size or contact owners to ask for a couple of measurements, etc. I've got one I'm redrawing now, I was able to get a copy of the old drawings but had read ther were issues and as soon as I looked in depth there were wrong sizes, missing sizes or things that simply would not fit. So I have ended up starting again working from Patent drawings and to a scale I'm happy to work with
My own thoughts are that the workshops of the past where all the work would have had to be done on the lathe as most did not have milling machines so castings were an easier way of making models with what was available. Times have changes and the majority have mills etc so fabrication or cutting from solid becomes a much more viable option making the need for many castings obsolete particularly ones that are often supplied for simple parts like a cast disc to use as a piston or cylinder end cap where a slice of bar would do the same job and be less prone to faults found in castings.
That is certainly the way my building has gone over the last few years, yes I'll make casting kits or have things cast from my patterns but the majority is fabricated or cut from solid and I have been doing it that way even before I got the CNC. The net gives us access to old patents, engravings, plans, etc so there is a wealth of material out there to be made so why just make a model because there is a kit available. I have also found this a considerably cheaper way to make engines and can often make for about half of what an equivalent casting set would cost which in these times is another factor to bear in mind.
I've published some of my designs both freely available or in magazines so others can recreate these engines buy the same methods I use so at least I am helping keep some alive as well as keeping other casting sets available by helping out with pattern making.
As for the "casting bank" it sounds a good idea but how practical would it be. Taking a couple of engines that have been discussed in this thread as examples.
The Galloway either just the 1/3rd scale version Pat mentions or all 4 scale options. The drawings had been updated at cost by Doug at Ministeam but I know he has said that the patterns also needed a lot of reworking or completely remaking for some parts. In several cases he was just selling inventory bought at the time the rights, drawings, patterns etc were purchased and never go a full set cast. So even if they could be scanned they would not be usable without reworking the files.
Todd has mentioned that he got the rights to the small New Holland but the patterns were lost. This seems quite common when things are sold during the clearing of someones estate as the relatives may knot know where the patterns are or they could be at the last foundry that was used. Even with patterns that can be kept track of some go missing so the set may not be complete, I've some to make in the next week or two to replace some lost ones and it's not the first time I have done that. So with missing or non existent patterns at best there would only be partial sets available to download.
Cost also has to be taken into account, No doubt Todd had to pay something for the New Holland and has said as part of the deal he has to make a number of engines. Doug was looking for very high amounts of money when he was selling off his patterns so who covers those costs. Then add to that the cost of scanning in all the patterns if they can be obtained and the chances of being able to freely obtain a download are not going to cover museums cost.
As pat is currently posting once you have your free files you are going to need a printer big enough to print them as joining together is not ideal particularly if having to farm out the casting. Not all builders are able to use CAD and slicer programmes or have a 3D printer.
One point that was covered earlier in the thread is that a lot of these kits become unavailable when the supplier has problems with finding a foundry(S) to do the casting so even less hope for the individual who just wants a few castings done.
Todd has also mentioned that the kits that were available in the past would not be upto the standards that many want today. I suppose those with the ability to do the CAD work to modify the file sand update the drawings may find the bank useful but others may not be happy with what is on offer. Many of the engines I make I add a lot more detail that may have been present if it were once a kit, the internet now makes it easier to look at images of the full size or contact owners to ask for a couple of measurements, etc. I've got one I'm redrawing now, I was able to get a copy of the old drawings but had read ther were issues and as soon as I looked in depth there were wrong sizes, missing sizes or things that simply would not fit. So I have ended up starting again working from Patent drawings and to a scale I'm happy to work with
My own thoughts are that the workshops of the past where all the work would have had to be done on the lathe as most did not have milling machines so castings were an easier way of making models with what was available. Times have changes and the majority have mills etc so fabrication or cutting from solid becomes a much more viable option making the need for many castings obsolete particularly ones that are often supplied for simple parts like a cast disc to use as a piston or cylinder end cap where a slice of bar would do the same job and be less prone to faults found in castings.
That is certainly the way my building has gone over the last few years, yes I'll make casting kits or have things cast from my patterns but the majority is fabricated or cut from solid and I have been doing it that way even before I got the CNC. The net gives us access to old patents, engravings, plans, etc so there is a wealth of material out there to be made so why just make a model because there is a kit available. I have also found this a considerably cheaper way to make engines and can often make for about half of what an equivalent casting set would cost which in these times is another factor to bear in mind.
I've published some of my designs both freely available or in magazines so others can recreate these engines buy the same methods I use so at least I am helping keep some alive as well as keeping other casting sets available by helping out with pattern making.
I have tried to teach the art of casting metal, the pattern making process, and the reverse-engineering process.
That way, the only thing that needs to survive is photos of old engines.
We need to keep the skill set alive for the next generation, and I feel especially strong about that with metal casting since it is truly becoming a lost art.
And if one masters the technique of reverse engineering, then one can cast models that have never been available as casting kits, or CNC the same.
I think the value is in the knowledge base to a great extent.
.
They had a backyard foundry/casting seminar at NAMES 2019, but it was not a quality presentation (they did their best for sure with the limited knowledge that they had).
I offered to do an iron casting demonstration at NAMES 2020, but they had any number of excuses of why they could not do that.
I have done a number of iron casting demonstrations, and never had a problem with safety or anything else, but there is an inherent fear of iron casting and foundry work in general by many, which I find very unfortunate.
Should I survive long enough, I am going to have an iron casting event at my place, to show those who are interested exactly how to do it.
Casting iron is surprisingly simple if you have the right materials, and someone shows you exactly what to do.
I was inspired in part by the local art-iron community, which routinely pours iron sculptures.
These folks are the best for keeping the art of metal casting alive, and they are absolutely fearless (the men and women who do iron castings).
Some of the leading instructors are women.
.
I offered to do an iron casting demonstration at NAMES 2020, but they had any number of excuses of why they could not do that.
I have done a number of iron casting demonstrations, and never had a problem with safety or anything else, but there is an inherent fear of iron casting and foundry work in general by many, which I find very unfortunate.
Should I survive long enough, I am going to have an iron casting event at my place, to show those who are interested exactly how to do it.
Casting iron is surprisingly simple if you have the right materials, and someone shows you exactly what to do.
I was inspired in part by the local art-iron community, which routinely pours iron sculptures.
These folks are the best for keeping the art of metal casting alive, and they are absolutely fearless (the men and women who do iron castings).
Some of the leading instructors are women.
.
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Below are a few screen captures from a 1923 article from "The Model Engineer" magazine, for a compound condensing steam engine.
Making patterns and casting your own engine parts is describes as a routine thing in this article, and the author states on the first page "The patterns should not be difficult to make".
So making your own patterns and either making your own castings, or having someone make your castings, has been around in the hobby for a very long time.
This is a technology that we should not lose as time passes.
.
Making patterns and casting your own engine parts is describes as a routine thing in this article, and the author states on the first page "The patterns should not be difficult to make".
So making your own patterns and either making your own castings, or having someone make your castings, has been around in the hobby for a very long time.
This is a technology that we should not lose as time passes.
.
Another example from a 1924 article from "The Model Engineer" magazine, for a compound condensing steam engine.
This sort of model building/pattern making/casting work is entirely possible in this day and age.
.
This sort of model building/pattern making/casting work is entirely possible in this day and age.
.
When casting kits of that marine engine were last on sale by Historic Models and Reproductionsthe the cost to them was $2100 and now likely to be well over $2500 for the ductile iron and E85 castings so a very limited market as only 3 of the initial run of 5 sold. They also had the cost of the preproduction prooving castings to swallow as well as developement time over several years. Retail would now be in the region of $5000 based on markups I know are used. Patterns are held by a foundry at the moment.
Same engine being built with all the main castings made from iron but not cast, no doubt at a considerable cost saving.
Keeping the art alive is OK if it is affordable and if you do have the cash can find somewhere to do the casting.
Even if you do find a foundry willing to cast you may have to try a few to get the quality you require or ones that are able to pour what you want made. For example a recent pattern had to be altered as the foundry felt they would not be able to pour the thin sections yet other foundries are quite able to cast a lot thinner. Though the patterns are best made of metal as wood and even 3D printed (particularly if not solid fill) ones may get damaged by a foundry using airset and not taking as much care as someone ramming up by hand, another cost to be considered when offering kits again
Same engine being built with all the main castings made from iron but not cast, no doubt at a considerable cost saving.
Keeping the art alive is OK if it is affordable and if you do have the cash can find somewhere to do the casting.
Even if you do find a foundry willing to cast you may have to try a few to get the quality you require or ones that are able to pour what you want made. For example a recent pattern had to be altered as the foundry felt they would not be able to pour the thin sections yet other foundries are quite able to cast a lot thinner. Though the patterns are best made of metal as wood and even 3D printed (particularly if not solid fill) ones may get damaged by a foundry using airset and not taking as much care as someone ramming up by hand, another cost to be considered when offering kits again
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Costs can add up quickly in this hobby.
I have seen some folks make significant investments in shops and the machine tools that go in those shops.
I have chosen to invest most of my money in 3D modeling software, and in 3D printers for pattern making, as well as foundry equipment.
My shop equipment is a 12x16 Grizzly, and a wood/metal Grizzly lathe, both inherited from my dad.
I don't use DRO except for my "poor-mans" DRO, which is a digital readout vernier caliper attached in strategic places when needed (generally on the carriage of the lathe).
So while my shop machine tool equipment is primitive by many standards in the hobby, I also have a full foundry with iron capability, and a woodworking pattern shop.
Everyone has to make the choice as far as how much they want to invest in a "hobby", and whether they emphasize the machine tool aspects, or emphasize the 3D software/3D printer pattern making/foundry-casting aspects.
There is no free lunch that much is for sure.
And things have gotten more expensive over time.
I have seen some friends who spend a lot of money on golf clubs, club membership, fishing/ski boats and fishing gear, hunting gear, ballgame season tickets, expensive vacations, expensive cars, motorcycles, airplanes, ultralights, you name it.
It is a matter of what you like to spend your money on, and what the priorities are in your life.
We are all different.
There is no "one-size-fits-all", and no simple solutions that will do everything.
Pick your threshold of financial pain, select the tools you feel will have the biggest impact on what you are trying to build, and have a go at it.
.
Edit:
One promiment model builder I talked too about 10 years ago mentioned that some hobby folks work exclusively in the realm of 3D modeling, and he sent me some of the most impressive and detailed 3D models of old steam locomotives I have ever seen.
So these folks build virtually only, and they have a blast doing that, and they save a lot of money in the process.
I have seen some folks make significant investments in shops and the machine tools that go in those shops.
I have chosen to invest most of my money in 3D modeling software, and in 3D printers for pattern making, as well as foundry equipment.
My shop equipment is a 12x16 Grizzly, and a wood/metal Grizzly lathe, both inherited from my dad.
I don't use DRO except for my "poor-mans" DRO, which is a digital readout vernier caliper attached in strategic places when needed (generally on the carriage of the lathe).
So while my shop machine tool equipment is primitive by many standards in the hobby, I also have a full foundry with iron capability, and a woodworking pattern shop.
Everyone has to make the choice as far as how much they want to invest in a "hobby", and whether they emphasize the machine tool aspects, or emphasize the 3D software/3D printer pattern making/foundry-casting aspects.
There is no free lunch that much is for sure.
And things have gotten more expensive over time.
I have seen some friends who spend a lot of money on golf clubs, club membership, fishing/ski boats and fishing gear, hunting gear, ballgame season tickets, expensive vacations, expensive cars, motorcycles, airplanes, ultralights, you name it.
It is a matter of what you like to spend your money on, and what the priorities are in your life.
We are all different.
There is no "one-size-fits-all", and no simple solutions that will do everything.
Pick your threshold of financial pain, select the tools you feel will have the biggest impact on what you are trying to build, and have a go at it.
.
Edit:
One promiment model builder I talked too about 10 years ago mentioned that some hobby folks work exclusively in the realm of 3D modeling, and he sent me some of the most impressive and detailed 3D models of old steam locomotives I have ever seen.
So these folks build virtually only, and they have a blast doing that, and they save a lot of money in the process.
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peterl95124
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2020
- Messages
- 424
- Reaction score
- 257
this is good!
I too have made a contribution (hopefully more to come), I followed Simon Fraser's lead making a 2/3 scale of the Muncaster #9 Joy's Valve Engine, by finding the original article in google-books, but its so hard to find that modelengineeringwebsite-dot-com had all the Muncasters except this one so I sent the editor links to it and they then published (a metric-ified version of) it. Stay'in Alive !
I'm making my Muncaster #9 entirely from bar stock, but the base really should be a casting, one of the patterns I'd like to see in a public museum and repository. maybe I'll get off my duff and make a pattern and have it cast in aluminum (no need or desire for a 100-lb model, or even a 50-lb 2/3 scale model).
I think Julius produced all his Muncaster drawings from the E T Westbury articles published some years later as they were available on the web and are what are on that website but they only covered the engines in Muncasters book "Model Stationary Engines" which did not include the Joy Valve engine or the Grasshopper Beam engine.
I have a set of castings and drawings of this engine for sale...check the other forum!When casting kits of that marine engine were last on sale by Historic Models and Reproductionsthe the cost to them was $2100 and now likely to be well over $2500 for the ductile iron and E85 castings so a very limited market as only 3 of the initial run of 5 sold. They also had the cost of the preproduction prooving castings to swallow as well as developement time over several years. Retail would now be in the region of $5000 based on markups I know are used. Patterns are held by a foundry at the moment.
Same engine being built with all the main castings made from iron but not cast, no doubt at a considerable cost saving.
Keeping the art alive is OK if it is affordable and if you do have the cash can find somewhere to do the casting.
Even if you do find a foundry willing to cast you may have to try a few to get the quality you require or ones that are able to pour what you want made. For example a recent pattern had to be altered as the foundry felt they would not be able to pour the thin sections yet other foundries are quite able to cast a lot thinner. Though the patterns are best made of metal as wood and even 3D printed (particularly if not solid fill) ones may get damaged by a foundry using airset and not taking as much care as someone ramming up by hand, another cost to be considered when offering kits again
I can't access the other forum, and no way to join it or see the photos posted there either (long story).
Edit:
Unless you are referring to the "other" other forum, LOL, there are a few out there.
.
Edit:
Unless you are referring to the "other" other forum, LOL, there are a few out there.
.
Pat why don't you just get a new e-mail address like a free gmail one and register as a new member. It's only attached photos you won't be able to see, many are hosted elsewhere and visible to non members so you would still be able to see me making cast iron flywheels without melting any metal.
While on the subject of marine engines one of the far eastern makers of ready to run engines as been spamming a few groups with their version of the Bolton triple. Now if they would only sell just the part CNC machined "castings" so the buyer could make the rest the supply problem of many casting kits would be solved and the prices would be good too.
While on the subject of marine engines one of the far eastern makers of ready to run engines as been spamming a few groups with their version of the Bolton triple. Now if they would only sell just the part CNC machined "castings" so the buyer could make the rest the supply problem of many casting kits would be solved and the prices would be good too.
Been there, done that a few years ago; does not work.
Not a problem; I am on the best model engine forum that exists.
Why go anywhere else?
.
There is always hope that you will "go foundry".
After all, you "went 3D modeling", and then "went CNC".
I can see the writing on your wall; it is only a matter of time.
Nobody can forever resist the temptation of fire and molten metal.
The lure is too strong.
Better start getting some molding sand together.
If you run across any high temperature fire bricks, grab those too.
.
Surely the second best after your own 
Might be your ISP giving problems, try from a different location or from your phone when away from home, couple of threads with some good casting going at the moment.
Who needs a foundry when I can produce CI flywheels start to finish ready for paint while your printer is still on the first half of a rough pattern
Might be your ISP giving problems, try from a different location or from your phone when away from home, couple of threads with some good casting going at the moment.
Who needs a foundry when I can produce CI flywheels start to finish ready for paint while your printer is still on the first half of a rough pattern
LOL, nope, my steam engine forum for all practical purposes is dead on arrival.
RIP little forum.
I use it for cloud storage now and an occasional chat with a friend or two.
It is basically my personal file cabinet.
.
RIP little forum.
I use it for cloud storage now and an occasional chat with a friend or two.
It is basically my personal file cabinet.
.
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