Bernd
Well-Known Member
Found the link to that boiler explosion. It happened in Medina, Ohio on July 29, 2001. Here's the link to the report. http://www.doli.state.mn.us/boilerohio.html
Bernd
Bernd
Boiler Safety
- Thread starter rake60
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Help Support Home Model Engine Machinist Forum:
I knew the guys through mutual friends. Terrible incident, but that's what happens when you let a crown sheet that is corroded to less than 1/8" thickaround the stays go dry over a fire and 100+ psi of steam. Also when you are using old safety plugs in your crownsheet that have so much scale over the lead that it doesn't melt out. I have been silent on all the boiler threads up to now but here goes my 2 cents. I have worked with a large group of livesteamers that have built their own boilers for their engines www.lakeshorelivesteamers.com their experience rances from ex steam locomotive engineers and certified asme welders to hobby folks. They have a very good boiler test procedure and certification process set by the club, as do many of the live steam clubs around the country, and have been operating safely and successfully for years. Yes the boilers are something to be respected, yes their care and maintinance are crucial, but they aren't ticking time bombs. and I would feel safe firing any of the clubmembers engines. most are steel shells with rolled in copper tubes, and if a leak occurs, we do as the prototypes do, plug the tube until the next teardown. the leaks arent explosive by any means. and as far as too large a safety or valve, at the end of the day, when you aretrying to blow the mud out of the mudring, you open the biggest valve you have on the boiler (can be up to 3/4" on a 6" dia boiler. to blow the crud out of the boiler. and the boiler doesn't explode. the boiler has been holding that energy in check all along, so there is no reason that it won't hold it as it is venting, as long as itis not from a tearing seam like the Case 110 in Medina.
-Bret
-Bret
raym 11
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yup,
In my other life the main plant ran 3 or 4 horizontal Cleaver Brooks horizontal fire tube boilers of sizes 100 to 250 horse power. The crown valves were 2 to 4 inches. We had a maintenance program of blowing the mud out of the drum on a weekly basis.This consisted of opening a '1" to 1 1/4" Quick Open' valve located on the bottom of the shell for 5-10 seconds.Even though they were low pressure boilers(250#), the blow down would definitely get a passerby 's attention. Mucho noisy volume.
Ray M
In my other life the main plant ran 3 or 4 horizontal Cleaver Brooks horizontal fire tube boilers of sizes 100 to 250 horse power. The crown valves were 2 to 4 inches. We had a maintenance program of blowing the mud out of the drum on a weekly basis.This consisted of opening a '1" to 1 1/4" Quick Open' valve located on the bottom of the shell for 5-10 seconds.Even though they were low pressure boilers(250#), the blow down would definitely get a passerby 's attention. Mucho noisy volume.
Ray M
rake60
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Bernd I know of that incident far too well.
It was a friendly, family oriented exposition where people were hurt because
a rusty relief valve malfunctioned.
The WRONG relief valve in a smaller boiler will offer the same results.
Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a blank computer screen.
I guess in reality I am...
I just don't want to see ANYONE get hurt by a little knowledge.
Now I'm PISSING MYSELF OFF again!
Unless you are properly trained in the physics of a steam boiler
DON'T F*%K with it!!!!
Was that out of line?
Do I care it it was?
If you want to build a bomb I can tell you how to do that with the
contents of your home kitchen supplies.
Will you survive the aftermath? Probably not.
That's not MY problem, all I did was offer the how to.
And Then............
Rick
It was a friendly, family oriented exposition where people were hurt because
a rusty relief valve malfunctioned.
The WRONG relief valve in a smaller boiler will offer the same results.
Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a blank computer screen.
I guess in reality I am...
I just don't want to see ANYONE get hurt by a little knowledge.
Now I'm PISSING MYSELF OFF again!
Unless you are properly trained in the physics of a steam boiler
DON'T F*%K with it!!!!
Was that out of line?
Do I care it it was?
If you want to build a bomb I can tell you how to do that with the
contents of your home kitchen supplies.
Will you survive the aftermath? Probably not.
That's not MY problem, all I did was offer the how to.
And Then............
Rick
Bernd
Well-Known Member
Rick,
I'm not advocating building a boiler as a team project. It just seemed to me that a bit more information could be gotten from that info on boiler explosions.
Didn't mean to piss you off. I understand your stand on this. I don't think your out of line on anything you said.
Would I or will I ever build a boiler? The answer to that right now is yes. I have plans for both the Clishay and a three truck Shay. Will I ever get to to it, well that remains to be seen.
And yes I've built a couple of kitchen type things that go boom. Ever hear of an air-fuel (leaving off the last word here).
Ok, enough said about this subject. Let's just hope that anybody building a boiler follows the spec's of the plan or buys one ready made by a professional.
Bernd
I'm not advocating building a boiler as a team project. It just seemed to me that a bit more information could be gotten from that info on boiler explosions.
Didn't mean to piss you off. I understand your stand on this. I don't think your out of line on anything you said.
Would I or will I ever build a boiler? The answer to that right now is yes. I have plans for both the Clishay and a three truck Shay. Will I ever get to to it, well that remains to be seen.
And yes I've built a couple of kitchen type things that go boom. Ever hear of an air-fuel (leaving off the last word here).
Ok, enough said about this subject. Let's just hope that anybody building a boiler follows the spec's of the plan or buys one ready made by a professional.
Bernd
Cedge
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Brend
I think see a consensus forming, of sorts. I don't think anyone has said building a boiler is a bad thing. BretK's post contained a lot of important keywords. Words like experience, testing procedures, certification, due respect, maintenance, and regular inspection. Granted... The boilers he's talking about are usually larger than the average table top variety, but most of them are just as applicable. No... a boiler is not a ticking bomb, but neither is their stored potential something one should take for granted.
Building a boiler can be a very rewarding project. I've been around quite a few home built versions with no problems of any kind. As long as one uses proper materials and building techniques are used there shouldn't be any problems with building one's own boiler. The consensus seems to be that getting well educated on the subject is the key to doing so.
I hope boiler discussions will always be a staple on the board. The information we get from experienced builders can only add to the chances that those who do attempt to build one will have a better shot at doing so safely and successfully.
Steve
I think see a consensus forming, of sorts. I don't think anyone has said building a boiler is a bad thing. BretK's post contained a lot of important keywords. Words like experience, testing procedures, certification, due respect, maintenance, and regular inspection. Granted... The boilers he's talking about are usually larger than the average table top variety, but most of them are just as applicable. No... a boiler is not a ticking bomb, but neither is their stored potential something one should take for granted.
Building a boiler can be a very rewarding project. I've been around quite a few home built versions with no problems of any kind. As long as one uses proper materials and building techniques are used there shouldn't be any problems with building one's own boiler. The consensus seems to be that getting well educated on the subject is the key to doing so.
I hope boiler discussions will always be a staple on the board. The information we get from experienced builders can only add to the chances that those who do attempt to build one will have a better shot at doing so safely and successfully.
Steve
Bernd
Well-Known Member
Cedge said:
You are correct. I also agree with what you are saying.
Again I agree whole heartily with that.
From reading the posts on this subject it seemed to me there were two extreme points brought up. I couldn't see were it was explained why a boiler explodes other than poor materials and poor workmanship. I didn't see anybody explain the maintenance needed on a boiler, which wasn't done on the boiler on the Case engine. Even though that engine was build by professionals it exploded due to poor maintenance and basically old age too.
From what I read in the previous posts was that a rupture can cause an explosion. I think Bret explained it best when he described the blow down of a boiler by opening a valve. Usually a blown down is done after the fire is out. Although I have seen it done with the boiler under fire.
I don't think some of members here fully understand the workings of a boiler. Show of hands of those knowing what a crown sheet is, were it's located, and why you keep the water level above the crown sheet. Also how many know that boilers of the locomotive type have what are called soft plugs and know what they do or where they are located. That was one of my reasons for posting the report of that Case explosions. It talked about the how's and whys of a boiler explosion.
Bernd
(edited)
I went back and looked at the video. Two things puzzel me. One, I saw no relief valve open and I didn't see the engine start to turn. I heard something to the effect of opening up a valve to start the engine running, I think. Also I question the solder used to hold the end cap on the boiler. Was it silver soldered or did they use a soft solder. To me that video is a good example of people not knowing anything about boilers getting hurt. It's also a poor example for newbies. Their first thought is that they all will explode and hurt you. They're right, but will they learn why that happend? I doubt it. Problem is you can't fix stupid.
B
Bogstandard
Guest
Bernd,
If you take that attitude you will work safetly.
If you have to think about anything untowards while you are making a boiler, you shouldn't be doing it.
Thoughts like, have I got enough solder on there, is that tube thick enough, is that too much of a gap. All these arising questions show you are not yet up to boiler making. It has to be done correctly or not at all. No lash ups or quick fixes, good workmanship should be the only thing you think about. If you are not up to very good standards, don't even contemplate it.
John
If you take that attitude you will work safetly.
If you have to think about anything untowards while you are making a boiler, you shouldn't be doing it.
Thoughts like, have I got enough solder on there, is that tube thick enough, is that too much of a gap. All these arising questions show you are not yet up to boiler making. It has to be done correctly or not at all. No lash ups or quick fixes, good workmanship should be the only thing you think about. If you are not up to very good standards, don't even contemplate it.
John
RE: blowing down to clear the sediment with a fire in the fire box: It was routinely done at marked locations during regular operations while the train was at speed and with a full firebox of fuel. It is still done today, if you get a chance to take a ride on the Cumbres and Toltec railroad in Chama New Mexico, you will get a chance to see them do it on a 120' tall curving trestle, truly a spectacular sight! Also, if you get a chance to look at some of the 4449 videos (Southern Pacific Daylight 4-8-4 you will usually get a shot of them blowing down over a trestle during their run.
-Bret
-Bret
Bernd
Well-Known Member
Bogstandard said:
I agree with you 100 percent on that John. Trouble is though I've seen some soldering jobs were the person doing the job thought he was good and it was a good solder joint. Luckly it wasn't on anything dangerous.
Bernd
steamboatmodel
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One thing that has not been mentioned, is NEVER ADD WATER TO A BOILER THAT HAS RUN DRY, extinguish the fire and wait untill the boiler is cold. You should then retest Hydrostatically.
Regards,
Gerald
Regards,
Gerald
BobWarfield
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Thank you Gerald for providing an actual actionable tip on how to operate a boiler more safely.
I love to learn more about how to do things more safely. The more practical tips I can get, the happier I become!
Cheers,
BW
I love to learn more about how to do things more safely. The more practical tips I can get, the happier I become!
Cheers,
BW
One thing that has not been mentioned, is NEVER ADD WATER TO A BOILER THAT HAS RUN DRY, extinguish the fire and wait until the boiler is cold. You should then retest Hydrostatically..."
Personally, I would pull the fire altogether, but the point is exactly the same.
Not a good situation to be in regardless!
That situation would result from violating the first three rules of operating a boiler.
You will rarely see them written down formally, but everyone abides by them.
You ready, here they are, pay attention,
1. Keep WATER in the boiler.
2. Keep water IN the boiler.
3. KEEP water in the boiler.
I am not kidding.
Additionally, ( and even more seriously) you should have at a MINIMUM two ways to GET water in a boiler. One should be a hand pump. ( I'm talking about the boilers the average ME will run here.)
My boat has three, BIG Hand pump, engine driven feed pump, and injector, all on separate circuits with separate checks and separate stop valves.
Don't forget plumb a stop valve between the boiler and the check. Checks fail!
Sub section rules for the above three are listed but not limited to the following:
Make sure your gauge glass is clean and it can be blown down and/or isolated, and you know how to blow it down.
Make sure you have trycocks for WHEN the gauge glass breaks ( it will ). know how to use them.
Put a Guard on the gauge glass so when it breaks you are not wearing it in your forehead.
I make no claims to my good looks, but I have grown rather attached to my face and would like it to stay there.
Make sure your lowest gauge cock and the bottom of your glass are suitably above the crown sheet/drum tube connections. How much depends on the boiler design....I can't help you there.
Make sure you have the tools to draw a fire if things go catiwampus on you. If you burn wood or coal, that would be an appropriate shovel. In a boat it's over the side. In other situations, any safe place other than the fire box.
Running a boiler is not a day at the beach. Dress appropriately. Wear jeans and full sleeve shirt and boots with socks, not flip flops. A fool runs a boiler bare handed. Gauntlet gloves are a must. OK miniature boiler valves may restrict your glove wear...make sure the handles are thermally isolated then. Safety glasses would not be amiss.
ANTICIPATE! This is important and can be the most stressful and difficult part for an operator to learn. Think about where you want the boiler conditions to be 10 minutes from now. Look at where the pressure is going, not necessarily what the gauge is reading right now ( is it rising or falling and how fast). Firetube boilers react to firing rate much slower than watertube boilers generally. Learn how your boiler behaves. Every one is a little differant.
Think ahead and soon you will be letting it run, instead of making it run......there's a difference and it takes practice and experience to learn it.
Have fun and be safe.
Dave
Personally, I would pull the fire altogether, but the point is exactly the same.
Not a good situation to be in regardless!
That situation would result from violating the first three rules of operating a boiler.
You will rarely see them written down formally, but everyone abides by them.
You ready, here they are, pay attention,
1. Keep WATER in the boiler.
2. Keep water IN the boiler.
3. KEEP water in the boiler.
I am not kidding.
Additionally, ( and even more seriously) you should have at a MINIMUM two ways to GET water in a boiler. One should be a hand pump. ( I'm talking about the boilers the average ME will run here.)
My boat has three, BIG Hand pump, engine driven feed pump, and injector, all on separate circuits with separate checks and separate stop valves.
Don't forget plumb a stop valve between the boiler and the check. Checks fail!
Sub section rules for the above three are listed but not limited to the following:
Make sure your gauge glass is clean and it can be blown down and/or isolated, and you know how to blow it down.
Make sure you have trycocks for WHEN the gauge glass breaks ( it will ). know how to use them.
Put a Guard on the gauge glass so when it breaks you are not wearing it in your forehead.
I make no claims to my good looks, but I have grown rather attached to my face and would like it to stay there.
Make sure your lowest gauge cock and the bottom of your glass are suitably above the crown sheet/drum tube connections. How much depends on the boiler design....I can't help you there.
Make sure you have the tools to draw a fire if things go catiwampus on you. If you burn wood or coal, that would be an appropriate shovel. In a boat it's over the side. In other situations, any safe place other than the fire box.
Running a boiler is not a day at the beach. Dress appropriately. Wear jeans and full sleeve shirt and boots with socks, not flip flops. A fool runs a boiler bare handed. Gauntlet gloves are a must. OK miniature boiler valves may restrict your glove wear...make sure the handles are thermally isolated then. Safety glasses would not be amiss.
ANTICIPATE! This is important and can be the most stressful and difficult part for an operator to learn. Think about where you want the boiler conditions to be 10 minutes from now. Look at where the pressure is going, not necessarily what the gauge is reading right now ( is it rising or falling and how fast). Firetube boilers react to firing rate much slower than watertube boilers generally. Learn how your boiler behaves. Every one is a little differant.
Think ahead and soon you will be letting it run, instead of making it run......there's a difference and it takes practice and experience to learn it.
Have fun and be safe.
Dave
Dhow Nunda wallah
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Gentle folk of this site, will any of you, outside of Oz, please let me know if your model engineering (etc) societies, require you to pay for information?
I require information, specifically, for a welded carbon steel boiler.
Aforementioned boiler will be:
1: welded by a coded welder (AS3902, ASME 9, pressure vessels, etc)
2: pressure tested and certified by a competent (ISO 9002) engineering company
3: supervised for first steaming by a combustion engineer (ex British Gas, among others)
Does any other country require one to part with credit card details, simply to comply with "model" boiler standards?
The AMBSC (Australian Miniature Boiler Safety Committee) requires coin of the realm, before they will tell me, just how safe my boiler must be.
Not insurance or audit trail, just "standards".
I can understand, and would welcome, recommendations.
I cannot understand witholding information.
Surely, it would make sense to freely publish these standards?
Any other Au modellers care to comment?
I require information, specifically, for a welded carbon steel boiler.
Aforementioned boiler will be:
1: welded by a coded welder (AS3902, ASME 9, pressure vessels, etc)
2: pressure tested and certified by a competent (ISO 9002) engineering company
3: supervised for first steaming by a combustion engineer (ex British Gas, among others)
Does any other country require one to part with credit card details, simply to comply with "model" boiler standards?
The AMBSC (Australian Miniature Boiler Safety Committee) requires coin of the realm, before they will tell me, just how safe my boiler must be.
Not insurance or audit trail, just "standards".
I can understand, and would welcome, recommendations.
I cannot understand witholding information.
Surely, it would make sense to freely publish these standards?
Any other Au modellers care to comment?
Maryak
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I know where your coming from mate but I am curious as to what your engineering company will be certifying without a standard against which to certify.
I have contacted a mate in Sydney as I am in the same boat as you. If I have any joy will let you know. ???
I have contacted a mate in Sydney as I am in the same boat as you. If I have any joy will let you know. ???
steamboatmodel
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"The AMBSC (Australian Miniature Boiler Safety Committee) requires coin of the realm, before they will tell me, just how safe my boiler must be.
Not insurance or audit trail, just "standards".
Is this Committee a Government agency?
Regards,
Gerald.
PS In Ontario, Canada the regulations are on the web
http://www.tssa.org/regulated/boilers/boilersSafety.asp?loc3=act
Not insurance or audit trail, just "standards".
Is this Committee a Government agency?
Regards,
Gerald.
PS In Ontario, Canada the regulations are on the web
http://www.tssa.org/regulated/boilers/boilersSafety.asp?loc3=act
Dhow Nunda wallah
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Maryak, you understand the quandary.
Steamboat, no, AMBSC is a private organization.
Largely organized around model steam locos, as far as I can tell?
And, for what it's worth, my plan is for a "steamboat".
A harbour tug of 19XX vintage.
Steamboat, no, AMBSC is a private organization.
Largely organized around model steam locos, as far as I can tell?
And, for what it's worth, my plan is for a "steamboat".
A harbour tug of 19XX vintage.
steamboatmodel
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If it is a private organisation can you not ignore them and find out what the Government regulations are?
Regards,
Gerald
Regards,
Gerald
I could be wrong on this issue but I think this private body is the organisation that writes the standards on model boilers for Australia and it's their standards that are required to meet to get public liabilty insurance etc.
