boiler copper

[plumbman23]

Hi all just a quick question what type of copper tube do you use for the boiler body?There seems to be confusion over what seems to be called "pluming copper" what ever that is..... I'm a plumber I should have heard of it lmao.ALL PLUMBING TUBE IS PURE COPPER.anyways in Canada we by the tube wholesale in lettered thickness M, L,and K(ACR tube and H also but that's for another time).All I would like to know is witch thickness most people here use. also there seems to be allot of concern about pressure inside.In north America the water pressure from the street or pump is usually around 60 psi (some exceptions) here in my town not uncommon on the job to see 90 psi in some houses.As long as you properly silver solder your joints the tube should hold no problem.So in my mind M thick should suffice altho I'm thinking of using L to be safe but experience teaches so better to ask than to be sorry (35 psi can kill that's why home hot water boilers in north America have a 30 psi relif valve)PSI cant be underrated.......

 

[tel]

There are other factors beside the purity of the metal that come into play - the 'seam' of the tube, the addition of heat, the joints generally ....

 

[plumbman23]

tube has no seam.....its drawn.....pipe has a seam.And I have the charts for pressure to heat for copper tube and pipe up to 4 inch.3 inch L type (wall thickness .090) can withstand over 400 psi at 200 deg f.And if anyone wants all that info on hand I recomend the I.P.T pipe trades handbook there about 70$ but money well spent for good reference material.

 

[GWRdriver]

I think Type M will just meet or is close to the minimum requirements for barrels up to 6" but the thickness needs to be checked against the formula for barrels in each instance. I use Type L just to be safe, especially in diameters of 3" and below. In addition to an increase in safety factor, Type L gives small barrels a little more meat which resists deforming or denting while being built or plumbed. Type K is overdoing it.

I recommend the I.P.T pipe trades handbook there about 70$ but money well spent for good reference material.

Copper tube schedules are easy to find online.

 

[bearcar1]

So Plumbman, is it my understanding then that most people misuse the terms 'pipe' and 'tube' when referring to say schedule 'K' or 'L' materials, say in the 2.000-3.000" diameter range, as used on commercial plumbing jobs? Does that material actually then have a seam or no? I use the term pipe, but if that is a misnomer, than I will begin to call it what it truly is.

BC1
Jim

 

[plumbman23]

This is how it goes tube is seemless and is referred to by letter for thickness no matter the diameter.(sometimes also by actual thickness in decimals alto not usually with tubing,in plumbing anyway cant speak for other trades)Pipe on the other hand has a seam and is usually referred to by schedule for thickness as in scd 10,40,80,110,120 etc and some times by the "weight" of the wall as in light,standard,heavy,x heavy, xx heavy (alto I believe that usually pertains to iron pipe) steel and iron are also referred to in decimal depending on application.And, tube or pipe when people reference 3.000 its always O.D as all fittings are standardized as to fit all wall thickness (lots of exceptions of course Hopefully i got that all right someone more learned than I can correct me if I'm wrong (and lets face it more often wrong than right lol) as alwase thanks for the help

P.s i have all kinds of m and L in 2.000 anybody try a 2 inch boiler sounds small to me is 3.000 the standard size most people build?

 

[bearcar1]

AHA! The penny finally dropped, thanks Plumbman. NOW it makes sense. What is commonly referred to as copper pipe that is sold in 10' sections is actually tubing in that it has no seam and is duly noted with alpha designations as opposed to regular iron pipe that is sold and is noted in schedule designations. If that is correct, than I gots it now. Thanks.

BC1
Jim

 

[GWRdriver]

3.000 its always O.D

Remember that US K, L, M copper tube is 1/8" over nominal dimension so a 3" tube will actually be 3.125"od.

anybody try a 2 inch boiler sounds small to me is 3.000 the standard size most people build?

There is really no standard barrel size although since most US boiler builders use the nearest available standard tube or pipe size to what they need. Occasionally when standard sizes just won't get the job done barrels are rolled. This is usually needed when someone in the US is building a British design, or a very old US design, where the barrel tube specified isn't available over here or is no longer made. For instance 3.5" (3.625") and 5" (5.125") copper tube is no longer made, so far as I know. These are still "standard" sizes and the mill will run you some, it if you have a large enough order, but you won't find them as a stock warehouse size any more. I'm currently building a boiler which called for a copper barrel rolled to 3.720" OD and the barrel has been rolled to size from flat sheet although in a perfect world I much prefer to start with a seamless tube.

2.000" or 2.125" copper (x 7" or 8") is the basic boiler size for Gauge1 live steam (1.75"/45mm track gauge) which typically must handle cylinders of 1/2" or 5/8" in diameter. There are exceptions to this of course. I've built maybe 50 boilers in this size and while larger boilers can use traditional/conventional boiler design, a 2" boiler needs a different set of design details to squeeze the most out of it.

 

[plumbman23]

**Remember that US K, L, M copper tube is 1/8" over nominal dimension so a 3" tube will actually be 3.125"OD.**
Thanks I had forgotten that were .125 bigger here silly if you ask me,make a real pain if anybody ended up with the other continents fittings lol. Cant ever really trust the manufacturer anyways have to be more precise than just 3" that .125 creates a problem if unnoticed,that's why measurement devices exist.Where would i find a book reference material for for smaller boilers Ive found the ones on simple steam engines from tubal Cain and Making Simple Model Steam Engines by Stan bray and am waiting for them to arrive and my trades manuals (alto they don't talk about boilers of this size, too small ) does anyone know of others that are of intrest?

 

[Dan Rowe]

See this thread for information on resources for model boiler design.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=8881.0

Dan

 

[tel]

tube has no seam.....its drawn.....pipe has a seam.

Some tube has no seam - that would be seamless tube, other, on close inspection, has - it can be a trap!

 

[tel]

This is how it goes tube is seemless and is referred to by letter for thickness no matter the diameter.

Perhaps, in A Merica, but in reality this is a potentially dangerous generalisation! There are other countries in the world too, you know!

 

[Maryak]

Just to add a bit more fuel to the fire.

I have always, (rightly or wrongly), known pipe without a seam as solid drawn.

So you have pipe, (with a seam), and then you have solid drawn pipe, (without a seam).

Tube can be a number of things from Youtube to toothpaste tube.

Finally the generic term boiler tube refers to steel pipe without a seam.

Hope this helps rather than hinders.

Best Regards
Bob

 

[plumbman23]

Some tube has no seam - that would be seamless tube, other, on close inspection, has - it can be a trap!

The biggest problem is most people have no idea at all that there is a difference between the two.
and looking in my manual there are three standards listed for the Australian standard namely AS 1450 (steel tubes for mechanical purposes) AS 1835 (seamless steel tubes for pressure purpose) and AS 1836 (welded steel tubes for pressure purpose) alto I don't live there (would love to, seems warmer than Canada lol) With those Standards listed does Australia distinguish between the two (pipe and tube ) or do they mash it all together? My main reason for starting this thread is there seems to be alto of interchanging the terms tube and pipe and it is in industry (ESPECIALY HIGH PRESSURE STEAM) to make shure the proper terms are used for your safety (the worker) and for all around you.Its rely easy to end up with a seam if you don't want one especially in the plumbing section if you don't have at least and idea of what your looking at.And last but not least not trying to raise anyones ire just trying to get more decent info out than most of the dribble on the net.

P.s- here in Canada we have a mostly mashed together system of metric and imperial and all the terms are a mixture of English (having a gov. general and all ) and what ever the Americans come up with to.

Thanks

 

[Dan Rowe]

If you are thinking HIGH PRESSURE steam then this is not the forum to ask as it is a hobby forum where the pressure is rarely over 100 psi or 7 kPa.

I believe steel boilers where you live should be built to ASME boiler code but I can not say for sure as I live in Texas USA.

You need to check to check the local code for steel types.

Dan

 

[tel]

Yes, we do distinguish between tube and pipe, but the distinction isn't always clear. Both tube and pipe have such wide reaching interpretations that it can be very difficult!

 

[plumbman23]

OK thank you for that info,were quite specific here in Canada for the most part.For sure if you go to the plumbing wholesale here and ask for 3 inch copper pipe you will have a seam and as far as i can gather you want a seamless piece of copper for the outer shell of the boiler.(mind you as far as Ive been able to calculate almost all thicknesses of seamless copper tube or welded copper pipe 3.125" in diameter should handle 100 psi at 300 to 350 deg f without trouble.I believe Ive done all the math properly and cant find any table that disagrees with that).If anyone has any other info I'm all ears all is welcome. And as far as they told me in collage all steam over 30 psi is high pressure steam,i have never heard different,and Ive never though small meant safer hobby size is still danger size if not treated properly a 3 inch tube at 40 psi can do major damage.
thanks

 

[steamboatmodel]

plumbman23,
I don't know what part of Canada you are in, but most regulations about Boilers fall under Provincial Regulations. A lot depends on the size, volume and pressure as to what regulations apply or are exempted.
Regards,
Gerald.
PS Dan started a thread on US State Boiler Code which has some interesting information.
For Ontario its
Technical Standards and Safety Act, 2000
ONTARIO REGULATION 220/01
BOILERS AND PRESSURE VESSELS
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_010220_e.htm

 

[plumbman23]

Thanks for that info,As far as Ive been told it is provincial jurisdiction alto its all basically still the ASME boiler code there not much difference for the most part.I live in eastern Canada and we actually for most trades fall under Ontario specs and codes.Here for the most part all code is based of of Ontario,Alberta or British Colombia.For example Canadian plumbing code 05 edition (updated every 5 years,the new code taking affect this year is the 2010 code, 2 years to wright it apparently ) is basically Ontario's code and our training manuals are from Alberta (causes much confusion as all provinces make there own amendments to the code that only apply to that province ,for example here in New Brunswick we cannot use air admittance valves on drainage alto the 05 code we use says its fine)
Thanks for the info as always