Bob J's No.21 Steam Engine - Plans and STP Files

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BECENG

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Hi Twin Green,
i know what you mean and it is upsetting. I have tried to protect my engineering company name by registering it as a legal trade mark and in theory should stop others from using it. Oh no. The law is useless. The reality is that if anyone knowingly or unknowingly decides to use it, it is up to me to defend it by writing a letter of complaint and hope they will respond. I my case they ignored my complaint. So it is up to me to initiate legal action which will cost me a bundle. My money is staying in my pocket. Fighting over a name is important to me but is not worth any financial loss.
However i think Julius work is fantastic and I personally appreciate all that he is doing for model engineering. He has provided drawings for many steam engines that would otherwise stay in oblivion. Last year I asked Julius to help me with a project i was working on, The Davis Directly Connected Engine which i was struggling with. He came up with design drawings for both versions and even noted on the drawings myself as the source.
I don't think for a moment Julius is out to rip off peoples designs for his own glory, rather he loves the hobby and offers his skills and vast amount of time for our benefit for free.
So in conclusion, all i can say that it would be beneficial that Julius acknowledges and respects his sources like your fathers design. Rather than harshly criticize him, he needs to be thanked for his tremendous contribution to the hobby. Well done Julius and keep it up.
 

ajoeiam

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For me is it not so much about copyright issues as it is about getting credit for designs.

An example is De Waal's drawings of my dad's No.21.
There are perhaps 10 or more Grabcad No.21 models on display, and they all reference De Wall as the designer/source, which is false; my dad designed that engine, and I created the 2D drawings for it.

So De Wall is sort of highjacking other people's designs and drawings, and in my opinion, taking credit for other's work.

If you have ever documented an engine, you know it is a tremendous amount of work to create accurate 2D drawings.

I open-source many of my drawings so as to promote the hobby, but each of my drawings states "for personal non-commercial use only".

I don't really think it is cool for people to abuse this, and I consider De Waal out of compliance with the "non-commercial use" thing, because he is using my drawings to advertise his drafting services.

I don't consider drilling holes in a flywheel "substantive changes", but I do understand your point.

There are multiple De Waal engines on Grabcad that used my drawings, besides the No.21; this is a recurring thing.
snip
Asking for credit for drawings is not exactly asking for much.

.

I hope I didn't make things worse with my questions/comments.
IMO this area of commerce is quite broken and asking for credit is very little but it likely happens rarely.
For myself all I can do is note when I see things that look too similar and then I would perhaps comment here if it were for a model engine of some type.
The law has long not been the small person's friend rather the golden rule is that "he with the most gold wins" which is quite unjust but it is the way it is.
Bummer that.
 

James Barker

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Twin Green, I have the copies of the original drawings that Julius worked from and there is absolutely no authors name on them other than in big bold letters "CSEE" as to which Julius has in fact recognized on his drawing sets. Plus, these drawings were of an HMEM team build #5 and there is also a comment on each of the sheets stating that copying and sharing is allowed, except for commercial usage. So, there you have it, you have been called out and it is my belief that you are misguided in your train of thought that Julius is taking credit where it is not due. He has not done so. As Becang stated, he should be thanked for his work in keeping these older designs alive and in some semblance of clarity, which is lacking at times. You should be glad that Julius is helping to keep your Father's work preserved for the masses.

BC1
Jim
 

GreenTwin

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Hi Twin Green,
i know what you mean and it is upsetting. I have tried to protect my engineering company name by registering it as a legal trade mark and in theory should stop others from using it. Oh no. The law is useless. The reality is that if anyone knowingly or unknowingly decides to use it, it is up to me to defend it by writing a letter of complaint and hope they will respond. I my case they ignored my complaint. So it is up to me to initiate legal action which will cost me a bundle. My money is staying in my pocket. Fighting over a name is important to me but is not worth any financial loss.
However i think Julius work is fantastic and I personally appreciate all that he is doing for model engineering. He has provided drawings for many steam engines that would otherwise stay in oblivion. Last year I asked Julius to help me with a project i was working on, The Davis Directly Connected Engine which i was struggling with. He came up with design drawings for both versions and even noted on the drawings myself as the source.
I don't think for a moment Julius is out to rip off peoples designs for his own glory, rather he loves the hobby and offers his skills and vast amount of time for our benefit for free.
So in conclusion, all i can say that it would be beneficial that Julius acknowledges and respects his sources like your fathers design. Rather than harshly criticize him, he needs to be thanked for his tremendous contribution to the hobby. Well done Julius and keep it up.
There are two sides to every coin, and no doubt Julius has done much to advance the hobby.
Hats off to him for doing that.
It still bothers me that so many references on Grabcad down go to Julius though, as if he created the material.
That is all I am saying.
.
 

GreenTwin

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Twin Green, I have the copies of the original drawings that Julius worked from and there is absolutely no authors name on them other than in big bold letters "CSEE" as to which Julius has in fact recognized on his drawing sets. Plus, these drawings were of an HMEM team build #5 and there is also a comment on each of the sheets stating that copying and sharing is allowed, except for commercial usage. So, there you have it, you have been called out and it is my belief that you are misguided in your train of thought that Julius is taking credit where it is not due. He has not done so. As Becang stated, he should be thanked for his work in keeping these older designs alive and in some semblance of clarity, which is lacking at times. You should be glad that Julius is helping to keep your Father's work preserved for the masses.

BC1
Jim
Julius is advertising his drafting services on the drawings, and adds his own copyright, which may be just a copyright of his layout?
Who knows.
I am thankful to see others using my and my dad's designs, and continuing those in the hobby.
I am sad to see the source repeately shown as Julius on Grabcad.
Julius has created none of my designs; he just copies them.

I watched a video onetime where they interviewed Mick Jagger, and they asked him why he was so agressive about enforcing the copyright on his songs. His response was "Well, if they are so freaking good, why don't they write their own music?".

Julius also posts his knockoffs of my drawings on a website that is filled with advertisements.
That is "for commercial purposes", and is in direct violation of the copyright on my drawings.

As I mentioned, I was not born yesterday, and I am fully aware that by posting drawings on the open net, one will totally lose control of them, and people will do whatever with them.

For these minor designs, it is all water under the bridge.
Does anyone really care about minor designs? Not me.

For major designs, this repackaging and commercial use is rather bothersome to say the least.

The arguement that others are benefitting from what Julius is doing just means others are contributing to the problem.

I have not seen Julius repackage one of my major designs (yet).
If Julius is interested in the hobby, why not just post a link to my drawings?
He knows where my drawings are.
He promotes his drawings and his website link, and siphons off interest to his name and the website he uses, at the expense of myself and others.

I think it is a valid question that when Julius uses other's designs, and creates his blinged-up knock-off, is he doing it for the benefit of the hobby, or doing it for the benefit of Julius and the website he posts on? Valid question for anyone who so extensively uses the work of others.

The folks who use his website and his drawings will of course say "This is a good thing".
I beg to disagree, for the reasons I state above.

The solution for me is simple.
Stop sharing drawings on the internet.
I have perhaps 20 or more designs in various phases of completion.

I won't be posting any of those anywhere because people are abusing this gift.

I will share drawings only with people I know and trust will adhere to the copyright requirements.

Sad that it has to be this way, but it is not I who is using and abusing other's drawings.

I did not create this post to create problems, but others have created a problem, and so I am forced to respond to that.
The problem is not me.
I am trying to do my part to share my work with others, and promote the hobby, as it should be.

I do resent others using my information in a way that violates the copyright, and yes Julius is in violation of the copyright terms on my drawings; make no mistake about that.
That is just not right, no matter how you try to spin how good it is for the hobby.

Edit:
I will take a break from this forum now, and you guys can go design your own engines, and I will go design mine.
Back to the sandbox as they say.
No more allowing copying of my drawings for me.
Make your own drawings. I won't allow folks to use my new designs for their purposes.

As the saying goes, fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

How many more Julius knockoffs of my drawings will you see on his website? Zero. I am done sharing.

.
 
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I have glossed over this discussion, as it seems some are getting upset over the thing that causes so much grief on this planet. I.E. MONEY.
Since the design of the first wheel was not copyrighted, we all use it. What is knowledge but something good to share?
Please remember that ANYTHING we do that we publish on the Interweb becomes "someone else's profit margin" somewhere...
So ideas with VALUE should NEVER be posted on here, but sent on paper by post to someone honest, who won't abuse the trust implicit in the transaction. Just like your bank details...
I post a lot of my knowledge and experience, without loss, as I don't know how to make money from it nowadays... And if I didn't post it, I would go nuts with frustration that it is not being used by someone for some benefit. Isn't that what these sites are all about? "Free giving", because that's all we can do?
I respect all those that can make a few bucks from their knowledge - good luck and well done.
Maybe the adage is "think before you print"?

Just my opinion, anyway.
Cheers,
K2
 

GreenTwin

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I did think before I posted my drawings on the net, and I did so with open eyes and full understanding.

I am not worried about those designs because I don't feel they are significant designs.

The designs I am currently working on are significant, and would have significant value to many for commercial purposes; ie: they could be used to start a casting kit company, or used for other for-profit uses.

I am not worried about De Waal or his drawings.

My concern is to not let De Waal or anyone else use my advanced designs for profit, and so the hard choice for me is that I have to avoid posting drawings in the future on the open net.

This is not my desire; I like to open-source everything I do, and advance the hobby for all, for free.
But unfortunately this is the decision I have to make, and the only way for me to protect my intellectual property rights.

It is an unfortunate thing; I like all the folks here, and enjoy sharing what I have with them, but this can't continue unfortunately.

Perhaps De Waal will have someone else's designs that he can share in the future with everyone that you can enjoy, but he won't have mine.
Those sharing days are over.

.
 

James Barker

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WoW!! Well I certainly hope in the future you achieve the level of recognition that you so begrudgingly are seeking and that you find happiness in doing so. Although I do understand what you are saying in terms of copywite infringement, there are glaring questions still left in my mind concerning this entire event. I am also sorry to hear about your feelings and concerns of monetary gain, not to mention the notoriety part. I did recognize your work and I offer you up a sincere thank-you for sharing it with us minions. (please put your personal name and not a logo or organization's name clearly on them in the future so there is no doubt as to who penned them originally) Once again it is my hope that your future works provide you a staedy income and the proper recognition you desire. I look forward to seeing more of your works soon.
Be safe please

BC1
Jim
 

GreenTwin

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A few points of clarification I think are needed.
I appreciate everyone's feedback.
I started this entire post to share information with folks here for free, and that is my motive for being here and creating this post.

I am not "begrundgingly" wanting anything.
I simple don't want credit for the drawings I created and copyrighted as "for personal use only, not for commercial use" going to someone else, and someone else's website and name, and being used for commercial purposes.
That is just common in sense in my opinion.
I have no grudges with anyone.
But anyone who creates anything should have the rights to that creative work, without the copyright being violated.

What name is on my drawings does not change the copyright in any way.
My drawings say "for personal use, not for commercial use".
I could put XYZ on the drawings, and the copyright requirements are the same.
This is a moot point.

I don't derive any income from any of my drawings, and I never have.
I refused to accept any money from Live Steam magazine for my green twin article, and they offered me a very significant amount of money, which I did not even ask for.
I provided that article to Live Steam for FREE, so as to share the hobby with others.

Every drawing I have ever provided online has been free and open-source.
Every drawing that I post in the future will always be free and open-sourced.

This is a hobby, I don't use this to make money, and I will never use this hobby to make money.
That is not what I am in it for. I am trying to promote the hobby by sharing information for free.

I was looking forward to sharing a lot of 3D models, drawings etc. but in light of recent posts, I have had to reconsider what is happening with my drawings, and to take unfortunate steps to avoid others just copying my work, adding their copyright to that information, and posting it on commercialized website.

I think in the future, any sharing of my drawings will have to be with people who I can trust will not to the "De Waal" thing with them.

No doubt many in this hobby find great value in what Mr. De Waal does with other people's work.
I am not trying to take anything away from his great drafting work, but it is not his material that he is using to make these great drawings.
I am not violating the terms of his copyright, but he is violating the terms of mine, so that is the distinction.

So anyway, these are important points, and without understanding the nuance here, you are misconstruing my motives and intentions, and so with all due respect, this is my clarification, and I hope you can understand my viewpoint, and my stance on this topic.

.
 
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James Barker

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Personally I have not misunderstood or misconstrued anything regarding your views on this matter. In fact, I agree with what you are saying, however, singling out JDW in this, only leads me to believe that you have some sort of vendetta going on here even though you state that you do not have any problems with the man. If this is true, then stop bringing his name up in your arguements. May I suggest that you temper your remarks about an individual and refrain from singling them out with your remarks as such actions can be grounds for a defamation of character lawsuit on their part.
Just relax, do whatever you feel that you need to do and let us all go on down the slippery slopes of life.

BC1
Jim
 

GreenTwin

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Point taken.
No vendetta.
I have exchanged personal emails with Mr. De Waal, and expressed my concerns.
He responded, and all is cordial.

I exchanged emails with the person who posts his drawings on their website.
Again expressed my concerns, and got a prompt cordial response.

There is no animosity. They listened to my concerns, and I think made some changes on their website.

We are in a free country here with a 1st Ammendent, and what I have said about Mr. De Waal is based on a literal description of his actions.
I have not defamed him, but rather described in detail how he has used my drawings, and how I don't feel that meets the requirements of my copyright.

You seem to be the one who is personalizing things here James.

I am just telling it like it is, so perhaps others don't find themselves in this same situation.

.
 

James Barker

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Au-contraire Mon Ami. I am glad that you and the rest of the modelling community are on cordial terms now and that some changes may have been introduced. With that being said it is also my hope that you will refrain from citing specific individuals for their actions, upon any public forums, in your future comments regarding your views of copywrite issues.

BC1
Jim
 

GreenTwin

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Thanks for your feedback, but it is not for you to decide what I or others say or think on any public forums.
There will be no limits on any of my discussions about copyrights or anything else that is within the terms of agreement.
Copyright discussions are entirely relevant here, and completely within the norm.

.
 
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Dragondark

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Green, I understand your frustration. I have had a couple original designs (electronics, not engines) stolen over the years. One by my own gov when I submitted it to get permission for advanced testing. It's galling to know you created something, took the time to refine it, and showed it to the world with pride of accomplishment only to have someone else steal it. And for whoever said it's about money, you are wrong. I never expect to make a dime off of my creations, the DOJ stolen project was inspired by friends I went to high school with who needed specialize equipment during Desert Storm II to protect themselves. Money wasn't the issue, protecting my friends was.
 

GreenTwin

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I have discussed my concerns with the folks I am aware of who have used my drawings, and this is no longer an issue with me.

The reason I mention this situation and provide examples of what has happened to me is to make others who may be contemplating posting drawings on the internet aware that there are some prolific folks out there who will use your drawings; they may use then in a way you did not anticipate, in a way that you do not approve of, effectively get credit for your designs either by intention or unintentionally, or even in violation of your copyright requirements.

Some may not care what happens to their drawings, or who uses them for whatever purposes.

I do care, and my drawings specifically state "for personal use only, not for commercial use", and so I would ask users of my drawings to respect that.

Unfortunately copyright issues have been problematic for many years, and there are some epic copyright battles out there, which often bankrupt one or both parties.

I read about one marine engine manufacturer (in the late 1800's) who used some of another company's design very successfully for their engine.
The other company threatened to sue, but in the end, the two companies merged, which was a wise thing perhaps (maybe a win-win situation).

.
 
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