A small boiler
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Metal Mickey
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This thread is going to be very useful for when I make my first boiler so many thanks! :bow: :bow:
ChooChooMike
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Yet again excellent on-going tutorial and learning !! :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
Hi Rgy
Thats a nice pair of engines you have there. You don't say where you are located but in the UK (the same as most other places I suspect) the boiler regs are pretty strict. Don't quote me on this or treat it as gospel but there is something called the 2 bar/litre rule. As I understand it if the boiler holds less than 1 litre of water and does not exceed 2 bar (appprox 30 psi) a boiler cert is not needed. If you intend to run it in public then a cert is needed ( I think). My boiler will never be displayed and run in public. I'm sure somebody on here will correct me if I'm wrong. Best bet is join a local club to get solid advice.
Cheers
Rich
Thats a nice pair of engines you have there. You don't say where you are located but in the UK (the same as most other places I suspect) the boiler regs are pretty strict. Don't quote me on this or treat it as gospel but there is something called the 2 bar/litre rule. As I understand it if the boiler holds less than 1 litre of water and does not exceed 2 bar (appprox 30 psi) a boiler cert is not needed. If you intend to run it in public then a cert is needed ( I think). My boiler will never be displayed and run in public. I'm sure somebody on here will correct me if I'm wrong. Best bet is join a local club to get solid advice.
Cheers
Rich
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Firebird, I've been enjoying and admiring your projects. Thank you for posting the pictures. I've enjoyed them all; you are an excellent photographer as well as an exceptional craftsman.
I am particularly interested in your alcohol burners. I have need for one that produces more heat than what a single wick can do. I like the multiple-orifice preheated burners you have built. For sure, I'll be trying to copy your design.
I have a question, however. First, let me say that I've been using mostly alcohol fuel in my projects and have had a couple of near-misses that could have burned someone or caused a serious fire.
Nearly all of these near-accidents have resulted from using burners built by someone else that allowed the fuel supply to get too hot and boil. The vapors go all over the place and catch on fire, readily. For that reason I have been very careful to thermally isolate the burner from the supply tank. Usually, I do that with model aircraft fuel tubing made of silicone rubber.
All this leads to my question: Have you experienced any such problem with the fuel boiling? The relatively large diameter copper pipe between your burners and fuel reservoirs appear to provide a very efficient thermal path between the two. If I tried it I would worry.
For any of you who have not used alcohol burners outdoors, let me offer this warning: In sunlight and in bright daylight, alcohol burns almost invisibly. Even the most diligent observant model operator can have a serious out-of-control fire and not even know it! Been there. Done that.
I'm going to try that pre-heating idea, but I'm chicken. I plan on breaking the thermal path with silicone rubber tubing.
Best regards,
Orrin
I am particularly interested in your alcohol burners. I have need for one that produces more heat than what a single wick can do. I like the multiple-orifice preheated burners you have built. For sure, I'll be trying to copy your design.
I have a question, however. First, let me say that I've been using mostly alcohol fuel in my projects and have had a couple of near-misses that could have burned someone or caused a serious fire.
Nearly all of these near-accidents have resulted from using burners built by someone else that allowed the fuel supply to get too hot and boil. The vapors go all over the place and catch on fire, readily. For that reason I have been very careful to thermally isolate the burner from the supply tank. Usually, I do that with model aircraft fuel tubing made of silicone rubber.
All this leads to my question: Have you experienced any such problem with the fuel boiling? The relatively large diameter copper pipe between your burners and fuel reservoirs appear to provide a very efficient thermal path between the two. If I tried it I would worry.
For any of you who have not used alcohol burners outdoors, let me offer this warning: In sunlight and in bright daylight, alcohol burns almost invisibly. Even the most diligent observant model operator can have a serious out-of-control fire and not even know it! Been there. Done that.
I'm going to try that pre-heating idea, but I'm chicken. I plan on breaking the thermal path with silicone rubber tubing.
Best regards,
Orrin
Rich, R.G.Y. is in darkest SOUTH DEVON over looking the sea & river TEIGN. Nov 2008 the exemption was raised to 3 bar-liters, for the southern federation of model engineers. I do belong to a club, but if it doesn't run on rails they don't want to know. As I don't have an approved design, the club tester won't issue a certificate. That is the problem. I have completed one paddle steamer (in 2001). I had to resort to moving weight from one side to the other by radio control and fly it like a plane. So I have designed a boiler with a low centre of gravity. A wedge boiler (if you aren't familiar with one)named after the inventor not shaped like a wedge RG.Y.
Hi
Orrin, I haven't experienced any problems with the burners I made, maybe because the tank is outside the firebox? I can see that having a remote tank connected by tubing as you suggest would be an improvement on the design. I may try that myself.
Rgy. We have a holiday in Devon every year, the English Riviera, one of our favourite places. I sympathise with you're boiler testing, I've heard of that attitude before, only recognised designs accepted . How do get a design recognised? Stifles progress somewhat I think.
Cheers
Rich
Orrin, I haven't experienced any problems with the burners I made, maybe because the tank is outside the firebox? I can see that having a remote tank connected by tubing as you suggest would be an improvement on the design. I may try that myself.
Rgy. We have a holiday in Devon every year, the English Riviera, one of our favourite places. I sympathise with you're boiler testing, I've heard of that attitude before, only recognised designs accepted . How do get a design recognised? Stifles progress somewhat I think.
Cheers
Rich
Rich, I think I have the answer to my boiler problem, Having done all the calculations, I have decided to build one. Then take it to Manchester so the insurance engineers can check the design and do a pressure test. This will cost plenty, but if I can then get it published maybe I can recoup some of this cost. Only then will it be a recognised design and may help other boat modelers. I have done a little research and there seems no designs have been published since the 1960'S (unless some one knows different).If you would like a look in my workshop, EMAIL me before you come on holiday.
steamboatmodel
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"I have done a little research and there seems no designs have been published since the 1960'S (unless some one knows different)."
What about Peter Arnotts designs in Model Boats Magazine, I am sure there are others. The criteria should not be whether the design has been published or not but whether it is a sound design or not. I have seen some published designs that if asked to approve a boiler built to them I would decline.
Regards,
Gerald.
What about Peter Arnotts designs in Model Boats Magazine, I am sure there are others. The criteria should not be whether the design has been published or not but whether it is a sound design or not. I have seen some published designs that if asked to approve a boiler built to them I would decline.
Regards,
Gerald.
SandyC
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Hi Guys'
The 'Appropriate Code' in this case is that published by the 'Southern Federation of Model engineering Societies'
and is the code to which RGY's club supposedly adheres.
Section 4.1 of this code clearly states that in the case of a new (unpublished) design then providing that the constructor produces a full set of drawings and the necessary mathematical calculations to submit to the inspector for approval, and providing that these support/verify the integrity of the design than there should be no viable reason for your club inspector to not provide a test and certificate.
Sadly, we are faced with a lot of 'supposed' experts in many clubs, who wear the testers/inspectors hat, and most are not capable of verifying the calculations.... in my mind such people should not be in the position.
RGY... if your boiler is of no greater capacity than 3 bar/litres, then under the same code you are exempt from all test requirements. (see ** below)
If, on the other hand, it is only a matter of insurance (which I would find odd, since any club using that code should have the appropriate insurance to permit it's use) then you can easily obtain insurance from 'Walker Midgley Ltd' or from any 'Royal and Sun Alliance' brokers, since these insurers were part of the team which developed and agreed the code in the first place. All will deal with individual applications, not just clubs.
There is no need to go to all the trouble and expense of getting your design verified by an outside authority.
Most of these would be following the same code anyway, or the original 'PRESSURE EQUIPMENT REGULATIONS 1999 SI NO. 1999/2001 ("PER") P.E.D.97/23/EC' code from which it was derived, and the same design verification rules apply.
** You may still need to get a steam test done under club rules, but this is not the same thing as a full pressure test, since no Hydraulic testing is required, but rather verifies that your safety valve, water gauge and other fittings etc are fully functional and that no pipe work leaks are present. This is done at normal working pressure.
Again, if the boiler is built to the code, then there should be no valid reason to refuse such a test.
Best regards.
SandyC
The 'Appropriate Code' in this case is that published by the 'Southern Federation of Model engineering Societies'
and is the code to which RGY's club supposedly adheres.
Section 4.1 of this code clearly states that in the case of a new (unpublished) design then providing that the constructor produces a full set of drawings and the necessary mathematical calculations to submit to the inspector for approval, and providing that these support/verify the integrity of the design than there should be no viable reason for your club inspector to not provide a test and certificate.
Sadly, we are faced with a lot of 'supposed' experts in many clubs, who wear the testers/inspectors hat, and most are not capable of verifying the calculations.... in my mind such people should not be in the position.
RGY... if your boiler is of no greater capacity than 3 bar/litres, then under the same code you are exempt from all test requirements. (see ** below)
If, on the other hand, it is only a matter of insurance (which I would find odd, since any club using that code should have the appropriate insurance to permit it's use) then you can easily obtain insurance from 'Walker Midgley Ltd' or from any 'Royal and Sun Alliance' brokers, since these insurers were part of the team which developed and agreed the code in the first place. All will deal with individual applications, not just clubs.
There is no need to go to all the trouble and expense of getting your design verified by an outside authority.
Most of these would be following the same code anyway, or the original 'PRESSURE EQUIPMENT REGULATIONS 1999 SI NO. 1999/2001 ("PER") P.E.D.97/23/EC' code from which it was derived, and the same design verification rules apply.
** You may still need to get a steam test done under club rules, but this is not the same thing as a full pressure test, since no Hydraulic testing is required, but rather verifies that your safety valve, water gauge and other fittings etc are fully functional and that no pipe work leaks are present. This is done at normal working pressure.
Again, if the boiler is built to the code, then there should be no valid reason to refuse such a test.
Best regards.
SandyC
Sandy c, Thank you very much you have cheered me up no end. Just the information I was hoping to find. It was the way I interpreted the rules.
I did submit drawings and calculations to the club tester who refused to comment on them, except to say he would not test an unapproved boiler. As I understand if a club tester will not test then a tester from another club should be nominated. R.G.Y.
I did submit drawings and calculations to the club tester who refused to comment on them, except to say he would not test an unapproved boiler. As I understand if a club tester will not test then a tester from another club should be nominated. R.G.Y.
SandyC
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;DHi RGY,
No problem my friend, glad to help.
Sound like your club tester/inspector is one of those I would rather not see doing the job... I would question his capabilities.
You are quite correct in your last statement regarding an alternative inspector/tester from another club, however, this must be done/arranged by your club and not by you.
The final paragraph of clause 2.6 covers this and is quite clear as to the procedure.
I wish you luck in your quest..... don't let a fool hold you back as there is no need for this type of thing to happen as often as it appears to do. The rules are easy enough to interpret.
Best regards.
SandyC
citizen004
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For what its worth I have a 7.25" loco which was designed in accordance with Mr harris's excellent book and it has just been retested under the Southern Fed Rules. It has a rudementary drawing and a set of imperial calculations.
the Southern Fed Boiler and Safety Officer may also offer advice
Wally Pearson
8 Pamela Avenue
Paulsgrove
Portsmouth
PO6 4QX
email [email protected]
As already stated by someone a small boiler below 3 bar-litres is exempt from the regulations - but all sensible clubs would ignore that exemption!
The Rules (revised edition 2008) do suggest that you discuss the design and materials before you start construction - but on your boiler it should be bleedin' obvious.
Produce a drawing - do the calcs - refer to the Code - and be prepared to move to another club.
If you wish I will scan the pages from the code if you are stuck
the Southern Fed Boiler and Safety Officer may also offer advice
Wally Pearson
8 Pamela Avenue
Paulsgrove
Portsmouth
PO6 4QX
email [email protected]
As already stated by someone a small boiler below 3 bar-litres is exempt from the regulations - but all sensible clubs would ignore that exemption!
The Rules (revised edition 2008) do suggest that you discuss the design and materials before you start construction - but on your boiler it should be bleedin' obvious.
Produce a drawing - do the calcs - refer to the Code - and be prepared to move to another club.
If you wish I will scan the pages from the code if you are stuck
