I built mine just for fun, a friend phone me up and asked me if I have seen those CNC machines, I said what's a CNC, I watched some YouTube videos and decided I wanted one, when I looked at the options my heart sank, I couldn't believe how much they cost, so I thought I'd build one instead, and save some cash, so that's what I did. Iv been happy with it, 1200x1000x300.
CNC options?
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What is the view of more experienced readers on having a cnc tabletop milling machine in a hobby shop vs having a manual milling machine, when you get a cnc machine going and are familiar with the usage does the old manual mill come obsolete? What I am after here is that will I still need the old trusty Optimum BF-20 mill or can (will) all the operations be made on a cnc mill in the future? I have a lot of simple drilling and whatever operations that I use the mill for, how does a cnc-mill compare in terms of speed of simple one off operations in general?
In my experience you'll want to keep the manual mill around. CNC is great for making multiples of the same part or complicated parts that require coordinated moves among two or three axes. However, there are lots of simple operations that will become too cumbersome and time consuming to perform with CNC. In my shop, the number of manual to CNC operations is probably 2:1. However, in terms of machining time, the ratio of CNC hours to manual hours is probably 3:1. - Terry
Olli
Get a CNC mill that has both CNC capability and manual handwheels, I think Optimum do these and Wabeco certainly do.
When you need to do manual machining then you need just that. Likewise CNC a combo machine does truly cover both Worlds.
CNC is great not only for multiples (what many say it's the only thing it's good for), but also complicated shapes that require coordinated motion in two or more axis. Consider the fretwork for a tall case clock. You have the artwork or can generate it easily. Want to spend a few hours with a jewelers saw or a scroll saw, or let a machine run for a while and have the completely cut out pieces and no sore wrists, elbows, shoulders, etc? Wonderful if you need to cut freak gears via profile milling horological high count gears that don't have a standard form, racks with all the curves and decorative shaping, the sorts of jobs that can be long and leave you sore when done with a crows foot and a jewelers saw. Even standard gear cutting with normal gear cutters is wonderful to do with CNC, although the set up isn't worth it for low count gears in many cases. If your cam package supports three axis coordinated motion than 3D objects can be made.
Although I've had several CNC machines for quite a while my manual machines still get the majority of the work, even more so now that I've retired from clock restoration work. I would never consider CNC a replacement for day to day manual machining in the small shop, it's another sort of tool that is great when it fits the job at hand.
Out in the wood shop manual woodworking machines are in regular use in spite of having two CNC routers and a good sized laser cutter.
Machines that have CNC and handwheels can be hazardous, those handwheels spinning fast and very little to no idea of which axis is going to move next are an invitation to damage when stuff gets snagged, particularly fingers. When a CNC machine is running you keep your hands clear. If you can't sort it out from the control panel or it's all gone wrong you hit the E-Stop. I don't even consider my manual and CNC mills to be the "same machines", they are at some level similar but still completely different.
Although I've had several CNC machines for quite a while my manual machines still get the majority of the work, even more so now that I've retired from clock restoration work. I would never consider CNC a replacement for day to day manual machining in the small shop, it's another sort of tool that is great when it fits the job at hand.
Out in the wood shop manual woodworking machines are in regular use in spite of having two CNC routers and a good sized laser cutter.
Machines that have CNC and handwheels can be hazardous, those handwheels spinning fast and very little to no idea of which axis is going to move next are an invitation to damage when stuff gets snagged, particularly fingers. When a CNC machine is running you keep your hands clear. If you can't sort it out from the control panel or it's all gone wrong you hit the E-Stop. I don't even consider my manual and CNC mills to be the "same machines", they are at some level similar but still completely different.
I still use my Manual machine for the majority of things I make. I only really use the CNC for more complex shapes that would take a lot of set up on the manual such as flowing curves and 3D work. Almost all that I do on the CNC is one off, two at the most. I've only gad a couple of occasions to do larger multiples.
Another thing is although my two main mills are approx the same overall size the CNC is far smaller in terms of X & Y movement so I simply could not do some of the things I can on the manual if I only had the one machine.
Also think about tools and particularly changing them. Unless you invest in a number of holders so you can keep specific tooling in them then it will take up time having to set the height of each tool as you change from one to another which you would not tend to do if say spot, pilot and finish size drilling on the mill. Unless you just want to jog the CNC in which case it is just a mill with power feeds in 3 axis.
The manual/CNC all in one machines tend to have fold out handles, even my manual mill can have the X handwheel disengaged when using the power feed, it is more likely that a home conversion won't have these features. Webeco fold in
https://www.wabeco-remscheid.de/cnc-frasmaschine-cc-f1200-basic-1.html
Another thing is although my two main mills are approx the same overall size the CNC is far smaller in terms of X & Y movement so I simply could not do some of the things I can on the manual if I only had the one machine.
Also think about tools and particularly changing them. Unless you invest in a number of holders so you can keep specific tooling in them then it will take up time having to set the height of each tool as you change from one to another which you would not tend to do if say spot, pilot and finish size drilling on the mill. Unless you just want to jog the CNC in which case it is just a mill with power feeds in 3 axis.
The manual/CNC all in one machines tend to have fold out handles, even my manual mill can have the X handwheel disengaged when using the power feed, it is more likely that a home conversion won't have these features. Webeco fold in
https://www.wabeco-remscheid.de/cnc-frasmaschine-cc-f1200-basic-1.html
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CNC is a wonderful tool! That being said here's a list of things that go along with it. First and foremost, need, which goes hand in hand with cost. Part of that cost is tooling and peripherals which includes a computer and programing to communicate with the machine. Second, a 3D modeling program and the time it takes to get proficient with it. There are numerous threads about 3D programs and the learning curves attached. Something that isn't mentioned much when using a CNC mill is coolant. Probably the only metal that you can cut without coolant is brass. Sure you can cut steel, iron and aluminum without it but if you're cutting aluminum at optimal speeds and feeds it will pin to the tool and either ruin the job or the cutter. So why did I mention coolant? If you're using it you'll want a somewhat dedicated area or shop with ventilation. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have one and I have all the required background but for the amount of hobby projects I turn out in a years time do I really need one?
Those fold out handles are a very nice options, something I haven't seen on machines offered in the US. I'll need to look for some as being able to move an axis by hand is very convenient, particularly when adjusting the machine.
Bazzer will confirm but I think the Wabeco has a way to remove any resistance from the motors when using manually.
Yes less chance of smashing an edge finder or probe with a wrong jog if you have handwheels.
Yes less chance of smashing an edge finder or probe with a wrong jog if you have handwheels.
I'll be the outlier and say that I have only CNC mills - yes, more than one.
I have a larger envelope Grizzly G0704 (I think it's the same machine as the Optimum BF-20) and a smaller envelope Sherline, with extended X/Y axes. My first milling machine was the Sherline CNC picked up surplus from a county school board. The CNC Sherline didn't work and I had to resurrect it, and eventually completely re-made it. There used to be a company called A2Z CNC that made an extended XY table for the Sherline and I rebuilt it with that.
The Grizzly was bought as a manual mill with the idea of converting it to CNC, which I did based on what are called the Hoss Plans (G0704.com). I made most of the parts for the conversion on the manual Grizz itself, but things like stepper motor mounts that had to be (fairly) precisely made, I did on the Sherline.
A recent use for it was making a chassis for small electronics (ham radio) project. It needed some accurately placed holes, four drilled, one bored. Finding or setting zeroes is the only thing that takes time, and even that isn't very time consuming. I suppose what I'm really doing could be done on a manual mill with digital readouts for the three axes, except instead of cranking hand wheels to a desired set of coordinates, I had to type
G01 X=0.000 Y=0.000
G01 X=0.781 Y=0.000
G01 X=0.781 Y=-0.781
G01 X=0.000 Y=-0.781
Stopping at each point to drill a hole. I did this twice, once for a spotting drill, then once for the properly sized drill. Raising and lowering the mill head to accommodate different length drill bits is easy because I have a hand controller made from a computer game hand controller. It's like hand wheels only push buttons.
(Bonus for anyone who would understand - these are the coordinates for the mounting holes of an SO-239 coaxial connector)
I have a larger envelope Grizzly G0704 (I think it's the same machine as the Optimum BF-20) and a smaller envelope Sherline, with extended X/Y axes. My first milling machine was the Sherline CNC picked up surplus from a county school board. The CNC Sherline didn't work and I had to resurrect it, and eventually completely re-made it. There used to be a company called A2Z CNC that made an extended XY table for the Sherline and I rebuilt it with that.
The Grizzly was bought as a manual mill with the idea of converting it to CNC, which I did based on what are called the Hoss Plans (G0704.com). I made most of the parts for the conversion on the manual Grizz itself, but things like stepper motor mounts that had to be (fairly) precisely made, I did on the Sherline.
A recent use for it was making a chassis for small electronics (ham radio) project. It needed some accurately placed holes, four drilled, one bored. Finding or setting zeroes is the only thing that takes time, and even that isn't very time consuming. I suppose what I'm really doing could be done on a manual mill with digital readouts for the three axes, except instead of cranking hand wheels to a desired set of coordinates, I had to type
G01 X=0.000 Y=0.000
G01 X=0.781 Y=0.000
G01 X=0.781 Y=-0.781
G01 X=0.000 Y=-0.781
Stopping at each point to drill a hole. I did this twice, once for a spotting drill, then once for the properly sized drill. Raising and lowering the mill head to accommodate different length drill bits is easy because I have a hand controller made from a computer game hand controller. It's like hand wheels only push buttons.
(Bonus for anyone who would understand - these are the coordinates for the mounting holes of an SO-239 coaxial connector)
Scott_M
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I guess I am an outlier as well. I had a smaller Grizzly knee mill for close to 30 years, a Taiwanese one. It was a very good machine and I did a lot of good work on it. When I decided to get into CNC ( 2007 ) I bought a Tormach 1100 one of the earlier machines, right after they enlarged the table and working envelope to 18x9.5x18. My machines SN# is 225. I have done all the series upgrades as they came out.
After getting familiar with it and learning G-Code, just a few months, the Grizzly sat unused for many years before I sold it to make room for a Tormach15L CNC Slant Bed Lathe with turret.
The Tormach mill has a jog shuttle which can be used to drive the table around kind of a poor mans pendant controller. It has 20mm ballscrews and nema 34 steppers. As soon as I started using it and saw the wonderful surface finishes I got I never wanted to run the manual mill again, even drilled holes are beautiful. Set ups are the same as a manual mill positioning is more accurate and finishes are much better. I designed a lever operated drawbar with bellville springs and a hydraulic intensifier to open the R8 collet so tool changes are only a few seconds and the machine uses a tool table with all the Z offsets so no picking up a new Z location on tool changes. And with the money I got from selling the Grizzly I bought a bunch of tool holders. It has flood coolant but I use a Fog Buster instead.
For simple stuff I usually just type a few commands into the MDI instead of writing a program.
For me, everything about it is faster and better.
Now the lathe is a different story. I have 3. A small Sherline for ultra small precise stuff and a 12x36 engine lathe and the Tormach slant bed. The engine lathe gets used the most.
Scott
After getting familiar with it and learning G-Code, just a few months, the Grizzly sat unused for many years before I sold it to make room for a Tormach15L CNC Slant Bed Lathe with turret.
The Tormach mill has a jog shuttle which can be used to drive the table around kind of a poor mans pendant controller. It has 20mm ballscrews and nema 34 steppers. As soon as I started using it and saw the wonderful surface finishes I got I never wanted to run the manual mill again, even drilled holes are beautiful. Set ups are the same as a manual mill positioning is more accurate and finishes are much better. I designed a lever operated drawbar with bellville springs and a hydraulic intensifier to open the R8 collet so tool changes are only a few seconds and the machine uses a tool table with all the Z offsets so no picking up a new Z location on tool changes. And with the money I got from selling the Grizzly I bought a bunch of tool holders. It has flood coolant but I use a Fog Buster instead.
For simple stuff I usually just type a few commands into the MDI instead of writing a program.
For me, everything about it is faster and better.
Now the lathe is a different story. I have 3. A small Sherline for ultra small precise stuff and a 12x36 engine lathe and the Tormach slant bed. The engine lathe gets used the most.
Scott
Likewise, I have three lathes; two Sherlines, CNC and manual, and a Little Machine Shop/SIEG SC-4 8-1/2 x 20 also manual. I've only used the CNC lathe for threading, but it's got to be better at turning tapers than I am.
Scott_M
Well-Known Member
( Lathe/Mill Humor )
A friend of mine has been running a CNC mill in a production shop for decades. He has a nice home shop with a couple big cnc mills and a lathe. I saw him doing a job on the mill that I would have done on the lathe so I asked him " why don't you do that job on the lathe ?"
His reply was " If I see the work starting to spin I wanna hit the big red button"
I guess it comes down to what you are used too and comfortable with.
Scott
A friend of mine has been running a CNC mill in a production shop for decades. He has a nice home shop with a couple big cnc mills and a lathe. I saw him doing a job on the mill that I would have done on the lathe so I asked him " why don't you do that job on the lathe ?"
His reply was " If I see the work starting to spin I wanna hit the big red button"
I guess it comes down to what you are used too and comfortable with.
Scott
I have a BF30 that I converted to CNC some years ago. I added a home built jog wheel and use that for manual work.
I configured LinuxCNC to simulate power feeds on X and Y for long cuts.
I have a library of gcode routines for simple holes patterns, facing, cutting large holes etc.
I use Fusion 360 to generate more complex 2.5 and 3D gcode.
Overall, I don't miss the manual mill at all.
I configured LinuxCNC to simulate power feeds on X and Y for long cuts.
I have a library of gcode routines for simple holes patterns, facing, cutting large holes etc.
I use Fusion 360 to generate more complex 2.5 and 3D gcode.
Overall, I don't miss the manual mill at all.
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Interesting posts, so it seems the outliers become more common.
When I got the first milling machine, it was CNC more by coincidence than conscious.
But... I am quite often thinking that a manual milling machine would be easier for a lot of simple tasks, and sometimes I thought for a lot of tasks a CNC is not necessary.
I would not sell a manual machine, I am even thinking of getting a manual mill.
Using the jog wheel for manual operation depends on the jog wheel and Machine type.
On the fully enclosed machine without good vision, it is usually not fun to use it for manual operations.
I used the CNC mill even for drilling simple holes, because I did not have a usable drill press. (not a good solution)
One alternative for small DIY cnc conversions could be to put on those jog wheels, one for each axis, positioned at the same location as the handwheels would usually be.
Some CNC lathes provide that arrangement, so the operation is very similar to normal manual operation.
p.s. Some people feel comfortable to use the (manual data input) MDI, a lot can be done without "real program" provided you know the G-codes in an out and can type it in quickly.
When I got the first milling machine, it was CNC more by coincidence than conscious.
But... I am quite often thinking that a manual milling machine would be easier for a lot of simple tasks, and sometimes I thought for a lot of tasks a CNC is not necessary.
I would not sell a manual machine, I am even thinking of getting a manual mill.
Using the jog wheel for manual operation depends on the jog wheel and Machine type.
On the fully enclosed machine without good vision, it is usually not fun to use it for manual operations.
I used the CNC mill even for drilling simple holes, because I did not have a usable drill press. (not a good solution)
One alternative for small DIY cnc conversions could be to put on those jog wheels, one for each axis, positioned at the same location as the handwheels would usually be.
Some CNC lathes provide that arrangement, so the operation is very similar to normal manual operation.
p.s. Some people feel comfortable to use the (manual data input) MDI, a lot can be done without "real program" provided you know the G-codes in an out and can type it in quickly.
The Wabeco has a manual mode and cnc mode as Jason says.Bazzer will confirm but I think the Wabeco has a way to remove any resistance from the motors when using manually.
Yes less chance of smashing an edge finder or probe with a wrong jog if you have handwheels.
In manual mode the stepper motors are still driven/turn manually by the hand wheel, so it feels a little heavier than a straight forward manual machine
Edge finding in cnc mode is done by using a Wabeco specific pendant wheel.
The actual hand wheels with the retracting handles are I think Italian, I will try and find the manufacturer.
Bentwings
Well-Known Member
When I went back to school for Eng degree I absolutely hated drafting board . Computers were just coming online I had a pretty fancy calculator so bi was ably to place the slide rule on bottom drawer an I could see the next step was cad so I jumped onboard tool make class had a primitive black paper tape cnc that I learned basic programming on but it was t hard to see where things were heading . So I jumped at the first Chan h to get into 4 d mocking I probably went thru a dozen cad systems over the years . Again it wasn’t hsrd see the direction things were headed once the interface between the cad model and the machine shop es made paperless mfg was possible I was fortunate enough to get I. On the ground floor of this and the place I worked at did ho paperless . I could fit at my computer snd work for days never gettin a chip stuck in my shoes . Ic get an occasional “ hey mister smart engineer would you mind coming out to cnc and tell us just what kind of tool we need to put 1/4-20 threads in a 1/2” thru hole ? “ that was a bad day I must have been working from home . And my kitty walked across the keyboard . So things were not error free all the time but the shop made good money and I got good money too
Home cnc and cad is a bit tedious at time but I thing it’s worthwhile . If you are only drilling 4 holes in a plate you should be able to lay them out accurateltly in a few minutes ahead to yhe drill press but if you are making some curvy yhing cnc is probably the better call we have a home lathe and mill but my son and his son both just freehand their projects I still have to show them how to make tool bits . Our next step will be resin printing. So I’ll make. Cad model then print it and just say make this in aluminum not quite read for expense of metal printing . There are endless shops that will metal print if you give them a cad model for pretty good deal costs
Mike Henry
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I'm probably another outlier here. I've had used a Tormach PCNC 1100 for 15+ years and realized this year that I hadn't used my Clausing 8520 at all in several years so I sold it, complete with Kurt 3-in vise, Servo (brand) power feed, and Shooting Star 3-axis DRO at the beginning of the year. About the only thing that I miss with it is the ability to drill with the rapid feed arm.
I still do a fair amount of "manual" machining with it, using a pendant or the MDI to control travels and speeds and that works much better for me than the Clausing did. If I focused on memorizing the G-code for drilling operations, I'd be all set.
I do have a soft spot for that 8520, but needed the space for another CNC machine.
I still do a fair amount of "manual" machining with it, using a pendant or the MDI to control travels and speeds and that works much better for me than the Clausing did. If I focused on memorizing the G-code for drilling operations, I'd be all set.
I do have a soft spot for that 8520, but needed the space for another CNC machine.
Bentwings
Well-Known Member
I model cutting tools got the manual lathe as don and grand don havent had real big shop experience then we work on TIG. Welding stuff . I have limited vision so I’m just instructor I’m not even dupposrf to be around machinery . Just have to be extra carefull at all times .
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