VW or Porsche Boxer Engine Plans?

davidyat said:

I have a love for VW type engines. I still have a 1967 VW Beetle as a driver for me. I learned my mechanic skills on my original 67 VW and have torn apart and rebuilt many VW engines. Are there any plans for model VW or boxer type engines out there? My first
VW was totaled and this is an exact clone of my first VW that I found on eBay. When the
weather here in Indianapolis is nice, this is my driver these days.
Grasshopper
View attachment 107732 View attachment 107733

Click to expand...

The Model Engineer is the mag that I got my plans from . The VW is a great engine to build not too challenging and a good runner.
Stich NZ

If you know anyone with an ME subscription all of the magazines you are looking for are available in the on-line archive. The individual pages can be printed off as pdfs.

Jo

I've started to receive the Model Engineer issues for the VW Boxer engine. It looks like Limewood is correct. I currently have issues 4240, 4243, 4245 and 4246. The even numbered issues have VW plans and the odd ones do not.

Hi David!
Where do buy the magazines? I'm really interested on this engine.

Thanks,

Edi

I started my research by typing in the URL line:

Model Engineer Vol. 194 Issue 4240 to 4248

One site I found: http://recycledmags.co.uk/shop/modelling-magazines/2005-model-engineer-magazine/

Model Engineer is a UK / English published magazine. Your only hope is to keep searching the URL and eBay until they show up. I still am looking for Vol. 194 Issue 4248. Don't know if I'll ever find it.
Grasshopper

I would like to start a conversation on this copyright controversy concerning the VW Boxer plans. And I'm asking Cosgy to comment on this. OK, I have found 4 of the 5 issues of the Model Engineer magazine with the VW plans. I purchased the magazine issues and I own them. Are you saying I can't copy the plans for my personal use? I paid for the magazines so I own them. According to Cogsy, if you can't find the magazines to purchase and 97 other people have them and won't sell the magazines to you, then you're out of luck to build a VW Boxer unless you can find someone to sell their magazine copies to you? This doesn't sound logical. OK, then, how about I copy the plans from my purchased magazines, then sell my magazines to someone for 1 penny + postage. They now own them, make copies of the plans and sell the magazines back to me for a penny plus postage. Do you see how silly and absurd this sounds? I'm sure copyright's are there to protect the originator of the plans from someone who copies the plans and charges money for them. But if I copy the plans from "my" issue and just give them to my neighbor, who's a machinist and don't charge any money for the copies, did I just break the law? The issues are out of print and if no issues exist in the world, are we all out of luck on building a VW Boxer engine? I just looked at the publisher's page. It states, "The Publisher's written consent must be obtained before any part of this publication may be reproduced in any form whatsoever, including photocopiers, and information retrieval systems". OK, I'm going to e-mail the publishers of Model Engineer and ask them for permission to copy the plans and just give them to any one who asks for them. Just pay for the postage. I don't want any money for the plans.
Grasshopper

Very interested in the reply. Maybe someone with interlectural property law knowledge may like to offer comments

Barry

First up - I'm not a lawyer and my comments are my personal understanding and opinions only, gleaned from a reasonable amount of online research.

Now, most copyrights are covered under 'fair use' and would likely allow for personal copies (such as backups or working documents) to be made if you have a legal right to the original (as in you currently own the original magazine and you want workshop copies of the plans). If you were to give or sell the magazine to anyone, for any price, you no longer own the right to use that material and the copies you made are no longer legal for you to possess and you must dispose of them. Similarly, if your neighbour makes copies from the magazines he purchased from you (which is legal) and then sells the magazines back to you, he now needs to dispose of his copies as he now has no legal right to own them.

If you make a copy of the copyrighted plans and give them to anyone, regardless of that persons' usage of the plans, yes, you are breaking the law.

A lot of plan sets, as mentioned previously, only allow for one engine to be produced from each plan set. This means that if you buy a set of plans with this condition, then build an engine from them, you are breaking the law if you then on-sell the plans to another person. I have no idea what the exact terms the magazine was sold under so not sure if this applies to this publication, but it is a common clause on many plan sets.

What most people seem to have issues with is the 'but it's out of print' bit. Categorically YES, copyright still exists after the item in question goes out of print and extends for a very long time (it varies somewhat depending on the media type and the date it was produced). People seem to be concerned that access to such items is going to be lost (and it may well be lost) and consider they're not hurting anyone by breaking the copyright on such an item. Now consider the recent case of Ron Colonna's Offy book/plans. This book is out of print and (as far as I know) will likely never be reprinted, so some builders decided to disregard copyright law and try and copy/share the plans, obviously thinking they weren't hurting anyone. As it turns out, Ron was in the process of producing an electronic version of this material and would have suffered substantial loss if his plans has been disseminated to the public domain.

We simply cannot know what the current copyright holders of these "obsolete" plans have in mind, now or in the future. They may be lost forever, or stored for future use, or possibly being compiled into a new publication. We don't own these copyrights and we cannot make decisions on what is to happen with them just to satisfy our own selfish desires. Surely no-one here would attempt to breach the copyright and share one of the plans designers such as Brian Rupnow or George Britnell sell so why are the rights of these unknown copyright holders not held to the same standard?

My suggestion - if there's so much interested in the plans for this engine, then there's an opportunity for someone to create a high quality, original plan set for this engine and sell it themselves. Now if that sounds like a lot of work or just too difficult (which I wouldn't disagree with) then consider how ethical it is to steal the existing product from the person who did do the work.

This is from Model Engine Maker. "Last month we lost a fellow Model engine maker and ICEBG member Brian Perkins". The post is dated April 4, 2019. Brian is the creator of the VW plans. I have already sent an e-mail to Model Engineer Magazine in the UK, asking for permission to copy the plans. I will try to contact the Brian Perkins estate in England, also, to see if I can get permission. There must be some way for all the modelers here to get these plans "legally" so they can build the engine. I just don't know how. I will always respect the rules of this forum and would NEVER do anything unethical. I just think it's so sad that someone who wants to build a model like this, can't, because they are unable to obtain the plans. If I get any more information on this problem, I will let everyone know.
Grasshopper

My understanding of copyright is that publishing plans (as in ME) puts them in the public domain.
Open to correction here,
Rotormac.

The owners of the ME magazine will have purchased the publishing rights from Brian and if you photocopy their magazine or copy and extract the drawings from their article you are breeching their copyright.

I don't recall Brian actually publishing any of his plans as large drawings separately from the mags. The copyright of those drawings would be held by his estate (son) and goes for 70 years....

Jo

P.S. ME mags were selling at £1 per volume at the last show I went to.

Responding to Dr. Jo. Since ME has the rights to Brian's plans now, I have sent an e-mail to them requesting permission to copy and share (not sell) the plans with others. I will keep everyone informed if and when I get permission from Model Engineer Magazine.
Grasshopper

also, copyright usually does not preclude the construction of one item for personal use, usually it's to prevent commercial exploitation. If the plans were sold as plans then it's a different matter.

You also should be aware than many people who publish their designs through ME mags miss out a couple of the parts I do not necessarily blame the original designers…

Jo

Rotormac said:

My understanding of copyright is that publishing plans (as in ME) puts them in the public domain.
Open to correction here,
Rotormac.

Click to expand...

Definitely not. Things can be disseminated in print, or electronically, without losing copyright. The easiest way to think about this is if we applied your method in terms of music - as soon a song is played once on the radio then if it becomes public domain people can freely record it and share it online. Obviously this is not the case. Copyrights are specifically designed such that copyright owners can distribute their materials with protection from illegal copying, this is exactly what they were created for.

davidyat said:

I just think it's so sad that someone who wants to build a model like this, can't, because they are unable to obtain the plans.

Click to expand...

If you get official permission, from the actual copyright holder, then all will be well. I know it's frustrating but it's certainly possible these plans are lost and will never be available again.

I fear the plans and castings for the Peewee and Pacifier V4's may suffer the same fate, with the copyright holder passing away last year. Unless someone from his family make an effort to do something with the copyrights and patterns they will simply disappear, which will be very sad indeed. I have a legal copy of the Peewee plans, which I'm working on my castings from, so I will have made the one engine that these plans entitle me to make. Of course I'll retain the plans in case I need to remake parts in the future (and for my records) but I will not be able to pass them along to other potential builders.

This is the same situation you have found the VW plans in. It's possible that the copyright will never be exercised again but it's also possible that the new copyright holder will decide to do something with them at some later date. You yourself have proven that these plans still have some value in that people are seeking to obtain them. This inherent value is what the copyright protects.

I see that Hemingway Kits UK have the Whittle v8 drawings and building instructions listed on the site ,£30.
Stich nz

Stichnz said:

I see that Hemingway Kits UK have the Whittle v8 drawings and building instructions listed on the site ,£30.
Stich nz

Click to expand...

I have these plans and am currently going through them to produce 3D Cad drawings, hopefully to build the engine in the near future.

Rod46 said:

I have these plans and am currently going through them to produce 3D Cad drawings, hopefully to build the engine in the near future.

Click to expand...

Oh there is nothing missing from these drawings.

Cogsy said:

If you get official permission, from the actual copyright holder, then all will be well. I know it's frustrating but it's certainly possible these plans are lost and will never be available again.

I fear the plans and castings for the Peewee and Pacifier V4's may suffer the same fate, with the copyright holder passing away last year. Unless someone from his family make an effort to do something with the copyrights and patterns they will simply disappear, which will be very sad indeed. I have a legal copy of the Peewee plans, which I'm working on my castings from, so I will have made the one engine that these plans entitle me to make. Of course I'll retain the plans in case I need to remake parts in the future (and for my records) but I will not be able to pass them along to other potential builders.

This is the same situation you have found the VW plans in. It's possible that the copyright will never be exercised again but it's also possible that the new copyright holder will decide to do something with them at some later date. You yourself have proven that these plans still have some value in that people are seeking to obtain them. This inherent value is what the copyright protects.

Click to expand...

Does’nt the copyright pass to the next member of the family, if there are any to succeed, until the copyright period has run out. I thought i’d read that in the copyright laws at sometime. But could be mistaken, have to take another look at sometime.