Anyone know anything about Millport lathes?

mfarris · Jul 24, 2013

My cousin has found one for sale. It is a 12X36 (model #1236). The guy told him it was made in the 80s. Are these considered good machines? From what I can gather, they are Taiwan machines. Is that correct? Are they better than the Chinese machines? What would this particular machine be worth assuming it is in excellent condition? Any info anyone can provide on Millport lathes would be appreciated.

Mike

wings_of_fire · Jul 24, 2013

If the machine is made in the 1980, then for sure it has slide ways for all of its axis. Slide ways wear out over a period of repetitive use even with lubrication because lubrication only slows down the rate of material removal. If slide ways loose their accuracy then obviously the machine won`t give you the kind of precision it was built to give. You will have to rebuild the slide ways and also scrape them which is an expensive labor intensive job.
If the machine is Taiwan made, then forget it is of excellent quality and don`t even assume it is in excellent condition. You very well know that the Chinese or Taiwanese economy is based on mass production and price sensitivity. They cannot and will never put the actual needed workman ship into a machine build. The first thing they are worried about is to sell the machine because they are hugely invested in the several machines they produce. They do not give preference to customer satisfaction for the long term because they are more worried about the present. In a situation like this it is very likely that the manufacturer, to get a competitive price advantage will sacrifice quality!.
Don`t call it an excellent machine unless you have checked its volumetric error under max loading.

Even though, if you need the machine for rough turning or you are willing to spend money on some unknown problems, then this machine is not bad I guess.

OrangeAlpine · Jul 25, 2013

Googling "millport lathe" brought me to the Millport site. They are a supplier of industrial machines, but no longer list a lathe this small. During the '80's, some of the Taiwan manufactures made industrial equipment that seems to be of pretty good quality. I have a small Taiwanese industrial mill of the era (not Millport) that was imported in very small numbers but is surprisingly good.

I would definitely check it out, but keep in mind repair parts are probably pretty dicey unless it happens to be the same as the 12 X 36 Grizzly or Jet of the era.

But I have no clue about the machine in question.

Bill

aarggh · Jul 25, 2013

wings_of_fire said:
If the machine is Taiwan made, then forget it is of excellent quality and don`t even assume it is in excellent condition. You very well know that the Chinese or Taiwanese economy is based on mass production and price sensitivity. They cannot and will never put the actual needed workman ship into a machine build. The first thing they are worried about is to sell the machine because they are hugely invested in the several machines they produce. They do not give preference to customer satisfaction for the long term because they are more worried about the present. In a situation like this it is very likely that the manufacturer, to get a competitive price advantage will sacrifice quality!.
Don`t call it an excellent machine unless you have checked its volumetric error under max loading.

Even though, if you need the machine for rough turning or you are willing to spend money on some unknown problems, then this machine is not bad I guess.

Sorry, I have to call shenanigans on this BS! Some of the tooling and machinery coming out of Taiwan for many years now is superb quality and beautifully engineered, and rivals the reputation Japan had! In fact given the decline in manufacturing in Japan over the years, I would say that Taiwan is the new Japan, and that China will in a few years become the new Taiwan.

To say all Taiwanese made stuff is crap, is absolute rubbish! In fact I wouldn't even say that about the majority of Chinese stuff either, as they are rapidly improving their quality and manufacturing proccesses over time.

Cheers, Ian

jwcnc1911 · Jul 25, 2013

aarggh said:
Sorry, I have to call shenanigans on this BS! Some of the tooling and machinery coming out of Taiwan for many years now is superb quality and beautifully engineered, and rivals the reputation Japan had! In fact given the decline in manufacturing in Japan over the years, I would say that Taiwan is the new Japan, and that China will in a few years become the new Taiwan.

To say all Taiwanese made stuff is crap, is absolute rubbish! In fact I wouldn't even say that about the majority of Chinese stuff either, as they are rapidly improving their quality and manufacturing proccesses over time.

Cheers, Ian

I have to ditto Ian here. Also, by slideways do you mean boxways? Also 80's is still going to be from an era when things were actually heavy. Boxways will outlast linear bearing in my opinion. My old '74 Clausing will indicate to a tenth and can machine to a tenth or better when taking your time.

I also have to ditto wings a bit too... Taiwanese quality is hit or miss and the skill and time is usually not put in the product. That's only part of the reason I push "buy American" or English or German... if you live in a country with a decent standard of living, by all means support it by buying local even in used goods.

wings_of_fire · Jul 26, 2013

aarggh said:
Sorry, I have to call shenanigans on this BS! Some of the tooling and machinery coming out of Taiwan for many years now is superb quality and beautifully engineered, and rivals the reputation Japan had! In fact given the decline in manufacturing in Japan over the years, I would say that Taiwan is the new Japan, and that China will in a few years become the new Taiwan.

To say all Taiwanese made stuff is crap, is absolute rubbish! In fact I wouldn't even say that about the majority of Chinese stuff either, as they are rapidly improving their quality and manufacturing proccesses over time.

Cheers, Ian

Seems like you have never encountered a Chinese or Taiwanese manufactured product which failed. You are probably protected by the stringent import norms of your country.

From my point of view, what ever you are saying is BS because if I had not faced several issues with their products I would not have been ranting.I have lost a lot of money due to inferior product quality and have been cheated in contract by the chinese companies. Business ethics are missing. If you give them a million dollar order, only then you are good and if you give them a small order then you are taken for granted.

The products that I imported from USA and Germany are much more reliable and I am satisfied with them. I would not think twice if I had to pay more money for the US or German manufactured products.

wings_of_fire · Jul 26, 2013

jwcnc1911 said:
I have to ditto Ian here. Also, by slideways do you mean boxways? Also 80's is still going to be from an era when things were actually heavy. Boxways will outlast linear bearing in my opinion.

I also have to ditto wings a bit too... Taiwanese quality is hit or miss and the skill and time is usually not put in the product. That's only part of the reason I push "buy American" or English or German... if you live in a country with a decent standard of living, by all means support it by buying local even in used goods.

I wrote slide ways because it represents box ways and dove tail type or any other sliding method used for a machine axis.
Box ways will outlast linear bearing is doubtful.Their accuracy decreases exponentially. So by the mid life of a box way you will be having pretty good error and you will always be compensating it. This compensating work takes a lot of productive time and brain power. Even if they are heavy, they need to be inside the given flatness tolerance or else it gets hectic and time consuming. Apart from that the cost of reworking box ways and machine down time

It will turn out to be expensive than a linear guide rail.

You are definitely right about buying from a developed country. The products are reliable and the investment is never wasted.

p.s:- Nice avatar pic

aarggh · Jul 26, 2013

wings_of_fire said:
Seems like you have never encountered a Chinese or Taiwanese manufactured product which failed. You are probably protected by the stringent import norms of your country.

From my point of view, what ever you are saying is BS because if I had not faced several issues with their products I would not have been ranting.I have lost a lot of money due to inferior product quality and have been cheated in contract by the chinese companies. Business ethics are missing. If you give them a million dollar order, only then you are good and if you give them a small order then you are taken for granted.

The products that I imported from USA and Germany are much more reliable and I am satisfied with them. I would not think twice if I had to pay more money for the US or German manufactured products.

There's plenty of crap products from EVERY country in the world, and more than a fair share from China at the moment. BUT, China right now has the same reputation that Taiwan had many, many years ago. Unlike Taiwan though, China is improving their processes at a faster pace so will be in a good position a few years from now, as I stated earlier.

I never said that there aren't inferior products being supplied, what I responded to was your blanket statement that "You very well know that the Chinese or Taiwanese economy is based on mass production and price sensitivity. They cannot and will never put the actual needed workman ship into a machine build"!

This is plain and utter crap! That may have been relevant many years ago, and possibly applies to some sector pockets today for sure, just as it applies to many other countries. I have been buying from all over the world for many years now, and I can certainly say that no one country has the world monopoly on bad service, inferior products or build quality, or pricing! Back to your statement that the stuff from Taiwan will never be good, well it's been good enough for many years from many suppliers now, to meet the same level of workmanship, quality control, and accuracy that Japan is famous for.

Have a look at what's available in the market today, the vast majority of stuff is Chinese produced simply by virtue of sheer volume, probably 1/3 to 1/2 will be considered sub-standard or inferior, some with be of fairly high standard, but almost all the manufacturers such as Optimum/Vario have their machines made to their specifications, and produced in China. And the majority of the commonly available higher end stuff is from where? Yep! Taiwan!

Would you say the BF16/20, etc, series is garbage too?

You had some bad experiences, that's too bad, and I could tolerate an ignorant remark that all Chinese stuff is crap, partly because a lot of the time, quite a lot may well be crap, and people seem to like harping on Chinese stuff. Even though most of the stuff on the world market is nothing more than re-branded Chinese stuff, but let's just choose to ignore that little fact hey?

But Taiwan can only ever produce crap? What a lot of rot!

cheers, Ian

wings_of_fire · Jul 26, 2013

aarggh said:
There's plenty of crap products from EVERY country in the world, and more than a fair share from China at the moment. BUT, China right now has the same reputation that Taiwan had many, many years ago. Unlike Taiwan though, China is improving their processes at a faster pace so will be in a good position a few years from now, as I stated earlier.

I never said that there aren't inferior products being supplied, what I responded to was your blanket statement that "You very well know that the Chinese or Taiwanese economy is based on mass production and price sensitivity. They cannot and will never put the actual needed workman ship into a machine build"!

This is plain and utter crap! That may have been relevant many years ago, and possibly applies to some sector pockets today for sure, just as it applies to many other countries. I have been buying from all over the world for many years now, and I can certainly say that no one country has the world monopoly on bad service, inferior products or build quality, or pricing! Back to your statement that the stuff from Taiwan will never be good, well it's been good enough for many years from many suppliers now, to meet the same level of workmanship, quality control, and accuracy that Japan is famous for.

Have a look at what's available in the market today, the vast majority of stuff is Chinese produced simply by virtue of sheer volume, probably 1/3 to 1/2 will be considered sub-standard or inferior, some with be of fairly high standard, but almost all the manufacturers such as Optimum/Vario have their machines made to their specifications, and produced in China. And the majority of the commonly available higher end stuff is from where? Yep! Taiwan!

Would you say the BF16/20, etc, series is garbage too?

You had some bad experiences, that's too bad, and I could tolerate an ignorant remark that all Chinese stuff is crap, partly because a lot of the time, quite a lot may well be crap, and people seem to like harping on Chinese stuff. Even though most of the stuff on the world market is nothing more than re-branded Chinese stuff, but let's just choose to ignore that little fact hey?

But Taiwan can only ever produce crap? What a lot of rot!

cheers, Ian

'People seem to like harping on Chinese stuff ' So they just talk out of thin air without any reason? So the stuff that you have is good and that is why Chinese or Taiwanese are giving excellent quality. Would that be the end answer to this...Not at all. No one is harping about for no reason.
And most of the re branded Chinese stuff on the world market that you talk about is because that stuff has been profitable to the middle men and that is why it is all over the world. It is less popular because of quality! But lets just ignore this fact too because it is harping.
The probability of Taiwanese and Chinese stuff failing on quality terms is way too high even to consider saying they produce good quality products. 1/4 buyers feel it is good and that is why the rest 3/4 buyers are harping just because the 1/4 satisfied customers feel their products are excellent.

I wonder how to find out the good crap out of the bad crap from China and Taiwan!
may be one should be dependent on chances. Hit and miss.
Buy it and then it fails,
Buy 2 , it fails - financial loss
Buy 3 , it fails - financial loss
Buy 4, it fails....- financial loss

I am not a billionaire to loose money on probability. If I am paying good, I want assured quality. I will still say China and Taiwan will not produce quality products that the developed countries produce. It is an unsaid compromise that every one is facing.

There are many people around the world who are not satisfied with the crap that is mass produced. It is silently gulped down. That is reality for the majority of people around the globe.

aarggh · Jul 26, 2013

wings_of_fire said:
'People seem to like harping on Chinese stuff ' So they just talk out of thin air without any reason? So the stuff that you have is good and that is why Chinese or Taiwanese are giving excellent quality. Would that be the end answer to this...Not at all. No one is harping about for no reason.
And most of the re branded Chinese stuff on the world market that you talk about is because that stuff has been profitable to the middle men and that is why it is all over the world. It is less popular because of quality! But lets just ignore this fact too because it is harping.
The probability of Taiwanese and Chinese stuff failing on quality terms is way too high even to consider saying they produce good quality products. 1/4 buyers feel it is good and that is why the rest 3/4 buyers are harping just because the 1/4 satisfied customers feel their products are excellent.

I wonder how to find out the good crap out of the bad crap from China and Taiwan!
may be one should be dependent on chances. Hit and miss.
Buy it and then it fails,
Buy 2 , it fails - financial loss
Buy 3 , it fails - financial loss
Buy 4, it fails....- financial loss

I am not a billionaire to loose money on probability. If I am paying good, I want assured quality. I will still say China and Taiwan will not produce quality products that the developed countries produce. It is an unsaid compromise that every one is facing.

There are many people around the world who are not satisfied with the crap that is mass produced. It is silently gulped down. That is reality for the majority of people around the globe.

Clearly as you keep stating, because you made or got some some bad buys, ALL Chinese and Taiwanese products are nothing but garbage! And it's just the deluded few that because they know no better, are happy with their pile of crap!

You win!

cheers, Ian

wings_of_fire · Jul 26, 2013

aarggh said:
Clearly as you keep stating, because you made or got some some bad buys, ALL Chinese and Taiwanese products are nothing but garbage! And it's just the deluded few that because they know no better, are happy with their pile of crap!

You win!

cheers, Ian

Not some some bad buys!

You got good products from them, that is nice, but I am not unlucky to get bad products.

And no one wins here. It is sadly reality and that is what I am saying.

jwcnc1911 · Jul 26, 2013

wings_of_fire said:
I wrote slide ways because it represents box ways and dove tail type or any other sliding method used for a machine axis.
Box ways will outlast linear bearing is doubtful.Their accuracy decreases exponentially. So by the mid life of a box way you will be having pretty good error and you will always be compensating it. This compensating work takes a lot of productive time and brain power. Even if they are heavy, they need to be inside the given flatness tolerance or else it gets hectic and time consuming. Apart from that the cost of reworking box ways and machine down time It will turn out to be expensive than a linear guide rail.

You are definitely right about buying from a developed country. The products are reliable and the investment is never wasted.

p.s:- Nice avatar pic

Hey, thanks for the avatar compliment... i got more of 'em!

Every one's experience is different. We clearly agree a lot... but my experience has been greatly different. I can show you machines made in the 40's 50's and 60's still cranking out good parts. One machine i was running in 2007 (when it literally spit out its millionth part - that's 1,000,000th) still holding 3 to 5 microns... that's 0.003mm. That machine alone, i can show data from a Zeiss CMM for about 12 years worth of trend data that shows a wopping 0.005mm shift. I can also show you a "new" CNC machine that cost about 1.2mil that is based on linear way and bearing that has lost about 0.050mm in just 3 years. I have CMM data to bavk that up too. Now granted most of my experience is major manufacturer where we put more money in a machine and we're not running Fadals. But I also own a small CNC shop... give me boxways any day.

Now not to take away from linear way and bearing, they have given two major things to modern machines. #1 first and foremost: ease of manufacture and repair. No grinding and scraping, just bolt and go. Second: increased feedrates. It does allow for much higher feedrates.

However, linear way and bearing left rigidity (and therefor longevity) in the past. Which is ok, most companies want a throw away machine nowadays any way!

Just my 2¥. I can always show picture references if needed.

jwcnc1911 · Jul 26, 2013

Hey wings... just noticed your in India - welcome! Also you guys are making more and more products in this segment of manufacturing from tools to machines... what do you think about quality coming from India? Are you happy with your domestic products?

Just curios... we have joint ventures in India.

Tin Falcon · Jul 26, 2013

Mike :

First of all I suggest you read the sticky thread I wrote posted in the tool sub fora giving info on purchasing a lathe.

I am sorry this thread started out with a sour grapes response. Wings of Fire is new here and we can see his experience with Taiwan imports has not been good.

If you are looking at import 12x36 lathes I suggest you look at grizzly . You will get an idea of the new cast of such a machine and can download a manual and get some details. Many of there machines are Taiwan some are from china so look carefully.

Also keep in mind the better importers select the best of the run for there company. the better names I know of are jet and grizzly for the larger machines.
Harbor freight is pretty much the end of the list. If the importers from india have no QC reps at the factory they may very well get the proverbial bottom of the barrel product. This could explain why many people in the US have purchased good taiwan lathes and this gentlemen in India has received poor product.

You are wise to consider the origin of the lathe but also remember the life it lead if you can find that out. If it had a hard life it may be worn out. If it had a easy life it may be a good deal.

The first thing to consider is the condition of the bed and ways . then the condition or the head and transmission gears inside the head.

IF the lathe is in great condition appearance wise, that is a good indicator.
a broken handle could mean rough use or simply storage wear.

Hope this helps.
Tin

wings_of_fire · Jul 28, 2013

jwcnc1911 said:
Hey wings... just noticed your in India - welcome! Also you guys are making more and more products in this segment of manufacturing from tools to machines... what do you think about quality coming from India? Are you happy with your domestic products?

Just curios... we have joint ventures in India.

Thanks for the welcome.

I am not at all happy with the products that are manufactured by the local shops. The MNC companies are able to give better quality, but that comes at a price.
KTA spindle tooling is a good company here. Its local prices are on the higher side.

I feel bad to say, but India has a long long way to even get its basic infrastructure set. 2013 and we are not even manufacturing linear guide rails, we do not manufacture linear scales. We do not manufacture quality AC servos. I can go on with a long long list!!
Most of the technology components sold here always have some important part imported from a different country.

Couple of years ago an Indian company collaborated with a German company to launch BFW brand cnc machines. They have picked up very good reputation here. Almost all the mid scale industries I visit have their cnc.

The products that come form collaboration with a company from a developed country are good, a bit pricey but are reliable.

But selling in India is not a piece of cake unless you are able to establish a fine line between price and reliable quality. People work a lot to earn money. First of all the money value is very low compared to the world and buying cnc machines that can cost as much as half the cost of a bungalow is a big thing for even the mid scale industries. People will put a lot of research into buying a cnc. The BFW brand I mentioned is selling only because of mouth publicity and it presence in most of the workshops.

Wizard69 · Jul 28, 2013

wings_of_fire said:
Thanks for the welcome.

I am not at all happy with the products that are manufactured by the local shops. The MNC companies are able to give better quality, but that comes at a price.
KTA spindle tooling is a good company here. Its local prices are on the higher side.

There are competitive companies in most countries.

I feel bad to say, but India has a long long way to even get its basic infrastructure set. 2013 and we are not even manufacturing linear guide rails, we do not manufacture linear scales. We do not manufacture quality AC servos. I can go on with a long long list!!
Most of the technology components sold here always have some important part imported from a different country.

Even in the USA we import hardware not produced here or as an alternative.

Couple of years ago an Indian company collaborated with a German company to launch BFW brand cnc machines. They have picked up very good reputation here. Almost all the mid scale industries I visit have their cnc.

The products that come form collaboration with a company from a developed country are good, a bit pricey but are reliable.

Anything good is pricey no matter where you are.

But selling in India is not a piece of cake unless you are able to establish a fine line between price and reliable quality. People work a lot to earn money. First of all the money value is very low compared to the world and buying cnc machines that can cost as much as half the cost of a bungalow is a big thing for even the mid scale industries.

It is really no different here. A CNC machine can easily cost as much as a home. High precision machines are are more.

People will put a lot of research into buying a cnc. The BFW brand I mentioned is selling only because of mouth publicity and it presence in most of the workshops.

Anyone know anything about Millport lathes?

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