taking the plunge

Going to be heading up to grizzly this holiday weekend (one of their four warehouses is about an hour drive) And it was going to be just for looking around, but the more I think about it, the more I get the itch.

I've fairly settled on the G0704 mill/drill with stand, as my first machine. (pending anything else that strikes me when I get to Grizzly)Several things come into play in this decision, versus a lathe first, and it just seems 'right' for me:
- I am looking to transfer jobs inside the company to a milling machine operator, so the experience will help
- I don't have a proper workshop, so the included stand will help
- I was always far more comfortable on the mill than the lathe, in H.S.
- There's lots of neat stuff I can think of to make on a mill... not so much on a lathe.
- with a little ingenuity, many lathe operations can be done on a mill, as I've read around the forum and elsewhere (chuck the part and use vise as toolholder, use a rotary table, etc)

But I'm trying to settle on other things I'll need to get at first, with it. Obviously to some extent this will be based on what I want to make with it first, but there are some absolute basics that I am sure I will need:

end mills
mill vise
wiggler
parallels
v-blocks
flycutter (of some sort? Most i see in pics around here are nothing like what i used to use in h.s.)
DTI (?)
cutting oil (suggestions?)
some sort of chunk of metal to turn into lots of little tiny chunks of metal

anything else I should look at as bare minimums?

I am not expecting my first project to be an engine. It's been nearly 15 years since I did much of anything with true machining (not counting my present job punching holes in $140mln airplanes), so I suspect I will start off with an old project I recall from h.s., the snowflake-in-a-cage. Maybe some other easy stuff i see in project books here and there before i start working on mill-based parts of engines.

Inputs as always greatly appreciated.
- Ryan

All of your points make sense to some degree but as a starting out machinist I would say that a lathe is much more versatile than a mill. You can square up stock on a lathe using a 4 jaw chuck or a face plate. You can turn round pieces, naturally. With the right attachments you can do all sorts of things with a lathe. A mill, although a very hand machine, just isn't what I would pick as a first machine.
gbritnell

What George Said!

Dave

Ryan,
I think as far as a mill goes..your choice is good what with the stand included, standard R-8 collets, etc. I assume you can save the freight as well by going to the outlet. I know money is a consideration for all of us and you will likely get various views on which to buy first lathe vs. mill. Ultimately, if you pursue machining as a hobby (engines or otherwise) you will need both.Historically speaking the lathe did come first so I don't disagree with George. But if you had said you were going to get a lathe first, I would still say you will need both as finances allow.While many milling jobs can be done on a lathe with proper attachments and patience in set-ups...round work on the mill will largely be limited to drilling and boring, at least withoug a rotary table. As long as your initial projects incorporate those limitations then you should be ok with the mill drill. Just my 2 cents.

Bill

There are always the nay-sayers

I did not intend to imply that i would not be pursuing a lathe. It is obvious to me that both will be needed before I get into any projects of any sort of complication.

A lathe, I suspect, could be had within a year of the mill - sooner if I stop eating out all the time ;D

Primary issues of concern for my particular situation in regards to a lathe are that:
- I know my limits and my patience. I really did very little on the lathes in H.S. and if I get frustrated too quickly I am more likely to give up. I would prefer much more research and study on lathe-work before getting one.
- I am, as mentioned, much more familiar with mills and can go further with them, thus increasing my interest in the hobby, and once I start hitting the shortcomings, will be more inclined to want the lathe even sooner.
- my garage, which will be my workshop to an extent, is extremely limited. I have only one outlet, and do not have access to the circuit breaker if I trip it. This will preclude me from using both at the same time (not that it would be wise to anyway), but it will also limit my arrangement. While it is not beyond consideration to run an extension cord from the house to the garage for another machine, that can at best only be a as-needed basis, and is also not really the wisest way to run things. The limitations in space available and arrangement seem to lend themselves more to a mill.
- Lathes in the range I'm looking at are slightly more expensive than the mill, and do not come with their own table/stand. This would delay my usage further until I can convince my extremely busy father to assist me in building up some workbenches.
- When it boils down to it, if I ask myself neutrally whether i want a lathe or a mill, I'm much more excited about a mill. see the first point in how this will affect my interest in the hobby

So. I greatly appreciate the suggestions of lathe first, but have given it, in my mind, sufficient thought to believe a mill is better for me. YMMV as always.

With that aside, the original question was, what basic additional things would you all recommend to start off with, with the mill (With the understanding that some things will be needed based on the projects attempted, but there are always certain necessities regardless of project - this is what I am interested in)

- Ryan

I bought my lathe and mill at the same time.

Since my previous milling experience was on Bridgeports I quickly dismissed the mill as a POC and ignored it for a long time while using the lathe copiously.

I have eventually come to terms with my mill's limits and foibles and get a lot out of it (but I have bought a BP since - too large for my home shop so it stays at work).

Its a personal choice - you need both but my vote is lathe first.

However for the mill you need a good vice, clamp kit, cutter holder - for a selection of end and slot mills, drill chuck and arbor and a fly cutter - as basic kit.

Moving on - a boring head, slitting saws + arbor and a rotary table should be on your future shopping list.

2c

Ken

I don't see any measuring tools in your list of things to buy. Do you already have those?

Rather than making objet d'art for your first projects, consider making some simple tools. Examples might include:

mill hold down clamps
depth gauge(s)
tapping tackle
etc.

The possible list is endless.

Advertising your location so it shows both in your profile and on each post will increase the chance of connecting with someone physically close to you. A good way to identify what you really need to get started would be to watch, notebook in hand, a hobbyist make something. Keep track of what he uses and how often he uses it, then construct your shopping list with that information in mind.

strange, thought I had my location showing. fixed that there...

I do have a digital dial caliper from another hobby (+/- .0005), as well as a 6" scale with 10ths/100ths on one side and 32nds/64ths on the other. If anything particularly precise or expensive is required, I can bring the part in to work and use tools from there. Just can't legally bring them home. well, if I want to keep my job. As management is fond of saying "you can do anything you want on your last day at the Boeing Company."

- Ryan

edit: my lack of sleep seems to be catching up. 'digital' and 'dial' used conjunctively seems rather silly. it's a digital caliper, no dial.... ignore my sleep-addled typing.

Everything on your list plus: Collets, drill chuck*, shank for drill chuck* and a boring head. You have a ? by the DTI. You will need it to align the vise and center bores etc. Also, buy quality end mills.

*The Grizzly catalog does not say included.

Rayanth said:

I do have a digital dial caliper from another hobby (+/- .0005), as well as a 6" scale with 10ths/100ths on one side and 32nds/64ths on the other. If anything particularly precise or expensive is required, I can bring the part in to work and use tools from there. Just can't legally bring them home. well, if I want to keep my job.

Click to expand...

Calipers are useful but you'll need a one inch micrometer at home. Also a good engineer's square is, IMO, an essential.

BTW, get something with a precisely known size and practice measuring with your calipers. They may resolve to (though not necessarily be accurate to) a half thou but, if your technique is flawed, you'll be lucky to hold to a few thousandths. Also remember that calipers will always read low when measuring the inside diameter of a hole.

No Naysaying Ryan.....just my opinion..

No body here is doing this for a living....so plan your tools to maximize your skill and enjoyment.

Dave

mklotz said:

Calipers are useful but you'll need a one inch micrometer at home. Also a good engineer's square is, IMO, an essential.

BTW, get something with a precisely known size and practice measuring with your calipers. They may resolve to (though not necessarily be accurate to) a half thou but, if your technique is flawed, you'll be lucky to hold to a few thousandths. Also remember that calipers will always read low when measuring the inside diameter of a hole.

Click to expand...

precision measuring tools is a course required of all mechanics at boeing, i'm well versed in their use =)
Advanced precision measuring tools will be my next one, when i go up for QA... not sure what that one entails. the basic course covered micrometers, calipers, feeler gauges, taper gauges, and even some unique stuff not found in the public often such as the electronic gap-man. We also went over ball-gauges, inside micrometers, and a few other things i'm sure i'll remember when i'm more awake. In all of these, we had to show a degree of proficiency in order to pass the course, and I use them frequently in my job as well.

Adding the square and micrometer to list though. Good suggestions =)

A set of drill bits of some sort.

V- blocks INMHO can wait. and simple steel packing straps make great "free" thin parallell.
if you were farther away like 2 hours I would say get a surface plate the shipping is sometimes the killer on those the plates are cheap.
some sort of layout tools scribe hermaphrodite calipers maybe a height gauge. Ideas I think the others covered the basics fairly well.
ti

A few of other basics to consider: an edge finder, a spotting drill (for accurately starting holes), a set of R-8 collets (or end-mill holders) and a clamping set such as this:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/52-pc-Clamping-Kit-3-8-Bolt-Size/G1075

I too agree that a lathe will be far more useful as a first machine. With a bit of planning a lathe can be used for many milling operations as well as making many accessories for a milling machine when you do get one ( fly cutters, edgefinders colletts and a host of other accessories

A " reasonably" good 6" rotary table will make the mill- drill a most versatile machine and if you add a suitable tail stock you will have " one hell of a mill- drill ".

Jerry

Pick your first project and decide - can it be done on a mill only or a lathe only ?

Make a list of all the tooling & measuring gear you would need to build this project.

Ken

Ryan,

We can only suggest, not tell you what is needed.

One thing I would suggest is to forget about milling at this time.

Even as close as say 10 to 15 years ago, a mill was an absolute luxury to have in your shop, and most of us seemed to machine and make everything we needed just using a lathe, bench vice, hacksaw and files. Then after that, the next luxury was a small drill press.

People, especially new starters, have totally forgotten how to use hand tools, relying on machines instead. There will come a time when those hand skills will definitely be needed, so in the beginning is the best time to learn.

The lathe is the 'master' machine of any manual workshop, which in all honesty, with a little work, can be used to mill as well.

You WILL also find that a mill will cost many more times to tool up than a lathe, it is for that reason people usually go for a lathe to begin with.

For a lathe, maybe 50% more of it's cost to tool up to a good standard, whereas a mill can be many times the cost of the original machine to tool up to do most things, especially if you don't have a lathe in the background.

Just a suggestion.


John

So, hypothetically speaking, if one were to get a lathe (10x22 from grizzly) first, what might they need for tooling it up initially? I've already stated I am MUCH less well versed in lathe stuff, so forgive ignorance please =)

(still can't fathom how one would mill in a lathe, except flat surfaces.)

-Ryan

Hi Ryan

I agree 100% with John - having gone through this exact process myself in the last 3 years.

For starters on a lathe - check what the lathe comes with as standard and add as needed:
3 jaw self centering chuck
4 jaw independent chuck - indispensable IMHO
Magnetic base and dial indicator
Tailstock drill chuck - this is not an option; it's a necessity.
A good set of drills
A collet chuck is really handy to have, but also a good learning exercise to build as a project.

As to cutting bits, I prefer High Speed Steel blanks to grind up as needed; this implies getting a small bench grinder as well and a bit of a learning curve, but I get MUCH better results on my lathe with custom ground bits rather than carbide tipped or insert tooling - so kind of a personal choice.

Milling in the lathe usually entails clamping your workpiece to the cross slide in some fashion and chucking up the milling bit in the headstock - collet chuck is a definite requirement for that. There are quite a couple of threads here on HMEM where members show how they're going about milling in the lathe.

I don't know what marking-out or measuring equipment you have, but a vernier/digital caliper is nice to have, a small engineer's square (or better yet a set), and a 0-1" (0-25mm) micrometer and a 6" (150mm) steel ruler.

A drill press is very handy to have - even one of the "cheapies" that's available.

Other members will most likely have some bits to add on.

Regards, Arnold