project of the month question

i meant to have a newbie version showing a full build write up but on a newcomers first attempt at one of the engines or projects listed in this forums plans index section no matter how long theyve done engineering or been a machineist and reguardless of how long theyve been in this forum community because even some vets may be able to learn a nifty trick or two from a complete novice
i just thought the idea would add a little aim and incentive to all those lurkers we have to join in or atleast be inspired to do a full build write up without thinking the same as i about building an engine wich to me would feel like being under the microscope of the top dogs
and my original question was aiming at why isnt there a newbie POM ie looking for a reason why not
not asking as in why not as if im trying to force for the idea of haveing a newbie POM
regards john

wich (sic) to me would feel like being under the microscope of the top dogs

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John,

Your choice of words here is both unfair and annoying. First is the implication that there are "top dogs" by which I gather you mean people whose opinion is more important than others. Many of us are on this forum for the simple reason that there isn't a perceived hierarchy. As with any forum, we have people with a wide range and wide depth of talents. Unlike most forums, they exercise those skills with a great deal of tact and diplomacy. You need to spend more time reading and appreciating the ebb and flow before making assertions like the one above.

"Under the microscope" implies excessive or unwarranted criticism of described projects. If you examine some of the newbie build threads you'll see that most everyone bends over backward to help the project builder over the hurdles he encounters. This is a very supportive group - especially so in the case of novices.

My suggestion is that, rather than trying to redesign the forum, you use your energies to start a build thread on a topic of your choice and see how it goes. I think you'll quickly find that folks are a lot more helpful and a lot less critical than you seem to imagine.

tel said:

Well said Marv, captured the spirit of the thing nicely.

BTW Sam, my vote went to your engine this time - good luck!

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Tel,

I am honored by your endorsement.

SAM

GailInNM said:

This was his second engine after someone told him how to turn his lathe on.

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Rof} Rof} Rof} Very true. (P.S. That was the 3rd engine. The 1st engine is in my Welcome thread.)

............

Gee. Sounds like I'm the POM poster child. ;D

First off...I've not been offended by anything in this thread.

Secondly, methinks this thread is turning into another misinterpretation of intent.

John's initial question is not much different from what has been asked many times before at the beginning of the month. And I do understand the 'microscope' thing. The way I took it is, knowing the caliber of skill on this forum, it's often difficult to say "look what I did". It hardly compares to some of the fine work. It takes a while for newcomers to realize that the forum is full of teachers and that this forum in particular is open to newbies and their development. That's why I'm here.

POM has evolved. It used to be Engine of the Month. Now it considers many/all/different aspects of the hobby. Including entertainment value!

I think like most 'elections' people vote for what they liked the most. So a newbie engine like mine can sometimes win.

Keep at it John.

Oh...and it's not true that length of thread matters...like many other things...it's the quality. ;D

(On the other hand, just showing an engine and no build is, in my opinion, counter to this program.)

I have more to say, but luckily for you all, it's another wine tasting tour time...

johnthomp said:

I meant to have a newbie version showing a full build write up but on a newcomers first attempt at one of the engines or projects listed in this forums plans index section no matter how long they've done engineering or been a machinist and regardless of how long they've been in this forum community because even some vets may be able to learn a nifty trick or two from a complete novice
regards john

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John,

I documented my first build, machine repairs and tooling I made. For me, documenting these things helped me make them better and think through the problems I came up against. I received so much help and advice from the members of this forum. No one ever made me feel bad or inadequate in my skills or the tools that I had available. Jump in with both feet and have fun.

Regards,

SAM

John
Having put myself through several online build threads, I can assure you you have things backwards. The microscope thing is not really a factor that is un-nerving, it's the feeling of sitting naked in Macy's front window that makes it difficult. If you blow it, there isn't anywhere to hide. Luckily this group will go out of its way to get you back on track and they do it with a high level of dignity left intact.

My POM vote is almost always based on the difficulty of the project, but even then it takes into count the skill level, sweat expended and determination to get it right. That took Zee over the top, along with several other new guy projects that have been honored.

My last POM took 4 months of working WAY WAY over my head. I'd like to think that was a much larger factor than the bling effect. It was a pretty engine, but I had to sweat bullets to get it done and running. These guys followed me every step of the way with encouragement that made failure unacceptable. For that I still find myself in awe of great the people here.

By the way.... with just over 4 very self taught years under my belt, I'm not about to let you or anyone else call me a "Top Dog" or any other superior label. I'm at best an intermediate with high ambitions and just too stupid or stubborn to quit.

Steve

This forum and POM are as far as I am concerned super,and does not need changing in any way,the POM shows all what can be achieved in this great hobby for novices and experts alike.
The old saying "if it aint broke dont fixit" is very apt here,if I was good with words I could expand on this but would step on some bodies toes nodoubt.
Don

once again i find myself in deperate need to justify a few things
1 i dont just vote for the prettyest pom i look for the one wich looks the more complex and intricate to build with the build thread showing the methods used and explainations of how people overcome certain problems and skills needed to improve or work on to get the desired result
this time round it had to be the wooden beam engine as i have contemplated building this engine from the plans on the john-tom website but as i am a joiner of some years i have built and rebuilt some rather impressive traditional oak rafter roofs and cottages not to mention the three masive bespoke oak staircases i built from scratch wich got a full 12 page centre spread in the uk lancashire life magazine 6 years ago
i can fully relate to how tedeous getting all those little joints cotters and such all to fit together perfectly really is and i really do take my hat off to the gent for haveing that much patience and persistance
2 the honest truth now about the way i word things such as ( the top dogs remark) its just me and my common upbringing as i was growing up i spent most of my time on building sites and such with common folk doing what they do in their little ranks such as a 25 yr old bricklayer nameing the 48 yr old bricklayer the gaffer but both parties calling the 65 yr old bricklayer whos seen it all (the top dog) meaning hes at the top of his game and so on
3 i am dyslexic so my choice of words is fairly limited as i dont know how to spell most things but just manage to get by most of the time wich is one of my main reasons for not haveing a facebook account twitter bebo skype or any other due to the ammount if times ive had to justify my wording of things in the past as people dont usualy clock my ailments and end up takeing offence to my way of expressing myself
another reason for me picking the wooden engine as a great pom is that the joinery/carpentry involved is intricate to the point of i cant do that anymore due to haveing picked up carpel tunnel ( constant shakes in both hands ) and vibration white finger from firing nail guns day in and day out for the last 10 years
especialy the hilti dx450 gun that uses live rounds to fire 3"nails into iron gurders
to create a fixing point for floor joists in lofts subsequently crawling round in lofts full of soot dust and depleted fibreglass wool insulation has wrecked my lungs so i get short of breath verry quickly nowadays and im not even 30 yet
i also have a mild form of autism in the way that i can look at any drawing /plan and know exactly how to recreate it perfectly without hesitation the reason i like this hobby so much i find the principle of it easy to follow but the skills are verry hard won
and my signature dont look at what something is look at what it can be works perfectly for people aswell
regards john

There can only be one king at a time!!! The rest of us have to accept our position as dukes, earls, viscounts, or serfs. Sometimes I feel like I am "Always a bridesmaid, never a bride". I have submitted numerous builds to this forum, and have been nominated a few times for project of the month, yet never once been a project of the month winner. Whine, whine, whine. I'll just have to get better!!! Okay---I'm old school. Not all the kids in my school won a prize at every event. Each time somebody won, the rest of us were all losers, because we weren't as good as the person who won. Non of us were scarred for life by this. The message was "If you want to win, do better----try harder---or get out of the friggin race!!! I may never win project of the month.--(Sure, I'd like to.)---But that won't keep me from building, posting, and having fun on this forum. In this new age philosophy where every kid gets a prize at the end of the race so that nobody has their feelings hurt, something vital is lost.---Brian

John
In all fairness to you, this subject was taken up by the moderation team some time back. After discussing the idea at length it was decided to leave the POM as is for the foreseeable future.

It's interesting to see some of the same points being made by the general membership. Other factors were the moderators' reluctance to take on the judging duties, as well as the realization that it would require a fairly restrictive set of rules. Since POM was never meant to be a competition, but as a means for the whole forum to honor the efforts of its members, we felt the idea would lead to problems we were not wanting to deal with.

Not to say your idea was bad, just that it was already seen as a potential can of worms no one wanted to open.

I note that you revisited the "Top dog" comment. What you seem to miss is that many, if not most of us come from hard working blue collar backgrounds, just as you describe. Others of us gained our skills in the dark of night, working all alone and making dumb mistakes we've never shared on the forum. I am one of those and I happen to know I'm not alone....LOL

Get your knickers untwisted and don't take every comment personally. We're here because we all love the hobby and enjoy helping each other. If that means getting the odd thump on the head for doing something that can get you hurt, take it as as the kindness it was meant to be.

As for language.... self censoring is the best option. I try to keep my vocabulary on the forum to level similar to what I'd use when having a nice meal with my dear old sainted grandma. Asking her to pass the F'ing potatoes would likely get me ***** slapped just before she had one of her world famous vapors attacks. If you wouldn't say it to the local Vicar, perhaps it's best not said too loudly here....eh?...(grin)

Steve

>Sometimes I feel like I am "Always a bridesmaid, never a bride" -Brian

Brian,

The Internet...it's a funny thing. As you know, when you post something for all to see, you can never fully know its effects. If you get any feedback at all, it will only be from those few who choose to provide it. The vast majority of people who have some sort of interest in what you have posted will never reveal who they are or what they think about it for one reason or another. When you take the time and effort to post something of value, whether it be anecdotal, advice, plans or a build thread, it is noticed and sometimes acted upon by many more people than some would guess.

As an example: When I first started thinking about model engine building, I came across your very well written plans for the large beam engine. The same one that was published in the machinist magazine. I printed out all the pages that you carefully drew and placed them into a binder and studied them. I pored over each page, trying to visualize what would be required in the way of equipment and skill to make such a piece. Because of those plans and your article, I decided this might be a good hobby for me.

-Trout

Brian...
Trout said it about as well as it can be said. Think of it as being a "wedding planner" without all those wilting flowers....(grin)

Steve

HI we is all on a learning curve I'm time served I only started this Hobey to keep my hand in after bin made disabled all i have for macking my engines is a lathe and a pillar drill not even a good one at that I'm yousing skills that i first yous ed when serving my time ie filing sawing and to be onist I'm enjoying it still wood love a mill ;D
if i dropped a clanger when serving my time their wos a nice Peace of railway line in the corner that on more times than i can remember i had to cut a lump off 1" thick all the way threw all i can say is no mater wot you mack its you that has dun it and fi it dus wot you wonted it to do then brill no dawt if it dident you wood start all over a gane we all have had broken taps drills spent 4 days filing choping bashing just to throw it in the bin most of the engines that i have made i have given a way to frends and famaley and as you can see by my spelling not even spel check can put sum of my speling right so just have fun

I didn't really want to put this post up here purely because my views from the last time it was aired caused rather a large chasm between myself and a good friend. Luckily, friendship eventually built a new bridge.

But I am coming in from a different angle this time, purely to give some of these people who think they have no hope of ever achieving POTM a bit of a boost.

There are many different levels on here, and never will everyone be able to reach the heights some of the more mature builders will. But some of you do have a friend in me, and most probably a lot of other builders on here as well.

I don't judge whether a model is technically perfect or a museum quality offering. I personally look at what the individual has achieved within his limits, not how good he can program a cnc machine or put his many thousands of bucks of machinery to work or how much he can afford to pour into a project.

You must realise that someone who has a gross amount of experience can produce standards much higher than a lowly beginner in this game, and as such, with the majority of members on here who seem to think that bling and technology must always be the winner, then those people with the experience and resources will invariably win most of the time.

This is the first time I have voted for POTM, purely, because in my eyes, there was one entrant who deserved it the most, with me being guided by my own misguided rules.

I don't mind telling you who I voted for either, it was Sam and his wooden beam engine, plus I will also tell you why.

Sam, of very limited machining and building experience, poured his heart and soul into producing a posting and engine that even I would be proud to have done. Showing the pits he fell into, and how he got around problems that would not have caused the more experienced amongst us to blink an eyelid, but in his world, they were major. To me, the shear effort he put into it was admirable, and so deserved recognition.

Most probably he won't win, being beaten by more technical and elegant projects, but in my eyes, he is the winner.

Also to those people who don't have good communication skills. We can't all have had a good education, and as long as I can understand the rough gist of what you are on about, then as far as I am concerned it, makes no difference whether you can spel orr knot. It is how you show your skills and ability that matters (good or bad), and how much you put of yourself into the build (the heart).

Being clinical and always perfect doesn't score any points with me, but human foibles and tribulations do.

Just airing MY views.

Bogs

Bogstandard said:

I didn't really want to put this post up here purely because my views from the last time it was aired caused rather a large chasm between myself and a good friend. Luckily, friendship eventually built a new bridge.

But I am coming in from a different angle this time, purely to give some of these people who think they have no hope of ever achieving POTM a bit of a boost.

There are many different levels on here, and never will everyone be able to reach the heights some of the more mature builders will. But some of you do have a friend in me, and most probably a lot of other builders on here as well.

I don't judge whether a model is technically perfect or a museum quality offering. I personally look at what the individual has achieved within his limits, not how good he can program a cnc machine or put his many thousands of bucks of machinery to work or how much he can afford to pour into a project.

You must realise that someone who has a gross amount of experience can produce standards much higher than a lowly beginner in this game, and as such, with the majority of members on here who seem to think that bling and technology must always be the winner, then those people with the experience and resources will invariably win most of the time.

This is the first time I have voted for POTM, purely, because in my eyes, there was one entrant who deserved it the most, with me being guided by my own misguided rules.

I don't mind telling you who I voted for either, it was Sam and his wooden beam engine, plus I will also tell you why.

Sam, of very limited machining and building experience, poured his heart and soul into producing a posting and engine that even I would be proud to have done. Showing the pits he fell into, and how he got around problems that would not have caused the more experienced amongst us to blink an eyelid, but in his world, they were major. To me, the shear effort he put into it was admirable, and so deserved recognition.

Most probably he won't win, being beaten by more technical and elegant projects, but in my eyes, he is the winner.

Also to those people who don't have good communication skills. We can't all have had a good education, and as long as I can understand the rough gist of what you are on about, then as far as I am concerned it, makes no difference whether you can spel orr knot. It is how you show your skills and ability that matters (good or bad), and how much you put of yourself into the build (the heart).

Being clinical and always perfect doesn't score any points with me, but human foibles and tribulations do.

Just airing MY views.

Bogs

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Bogs, I think you hit the nail on the head!

Bogs,

I don't know what to say except, thank you.

SAM

Well said Bogster. I've voted for more underdogs than blingmeisters, myself. Even a beginner has the chance to get my vote if he's swinging with everything he's got to give it.

Steve