Cheap (Chinese?) Carbide Tips

[MRA]

Hi folks

I recently bought a cheap (£35-ish) R8 4-insert 50mm face cutter, and I've been playing with it on the Bridgeport at work. I bought a cheap one as I reckon I've more chance of smashing up the tips by doing something daft, than wearing them out doing appropriate things lots of times at high speed as in a production environment - which we are not. Saying that, branded replacement tips are available in the right shapes, at much higher prices.

So - I want to ask the silly question; the one to which I would roll my eyes if anyone asked it about, for instance, hacksaw blades. What's the problem with cheap carbide? Can I expect tips to dull quickly, even with light cuts and slow speeds and feeds on mild steel? Or is it just that it'll give up on (say) stainless quicker than branded material? I'd like to know your experiences.

Thanks all
M.

 

[DJP]

My only experience with inexpensive carbide cutters is with lathe cutters where the carbide is silver soldered to a steel holder. Under heavier load the carbide fractures which I assume is because it isn't well supported. The cutters that I build myself using indexable carbide inserts held in place with a screw last a long time and they are perfect for stainless or toughened steel.

Not much help as I too am interested in other responses.

 

[Jasonb]

I also bought a similar cutter for less than that and got very poor results with it, changed to some decent brand name tips which cost more for 4 than the cutter and it was transformed. Also found the head was a loose fit on the 22mm arbor so clocked that in which helped a lot.

Have a look at this thread where I wrote about it rather than me having to post the videos and photos again.

 

[bazmak]

I use a lot of cheap RCTs and the main problem is chipping rather than wear.However i will stick with them
as i have no comparison with more expensive named ones. I also get a certain extended life by

 

[Hopper]

I've been using cheapo lathe tooling inserts off Aliexpress without problems for some time now. Quite surprising really. But I figure there must be a lot of machining going on in all those factories in China and they probably aren't stopping production to change rubbish inserts all the time. They are so cheap -- $10 for a box of 10 inserts -- it's worth a punt to try them. So far, so good.

 

[MRA]

> Can I expect tips to dull quickly, even with light cuts and slow speeds and feeds on mild steel?

(sorry to quote myself - but thanks to JasonB's link, it seems I am quoting myself saying something silly! )

I'm used to HSS, where slowing down in all senses usually seems to give a better finish. But from reading around, it seems carbide wants to spin fast (OK, I sort-of-knew that) and *feed like hell*! I'm amazed - alarmed, even - at the feed rates recommended by various rules of thumb I have found online, and having tried them (50mm 4-insert face cutter, mild steel, 600 rpm (OK...), 600mm/min feed (what?!)) - well, it seems to work. Apparently light cuts / feeding slow rubs the inserts, heats them up and spoils them.

Finish is good, but not as good as I could do very, very slowly with HSS. Well, I suppose I'm learning.

 

[XD351]

Machining with carbide is a whole new ballgame compared to HSS and there are a few things you need to understand:
Carbide inserts have various radii on the cutting edges so fine cuts are a no no so don't expect to knock a few ten thousands off the diameter like you can with a sharp HSS bit .
They like higher speeds than HSS and heavier cuts so better for roughing out work
Some types don't like intermittent cuts and can chip easily .
Just like there are cheap pieces of tool steel there are cheap inserts and they for the most part will serve you well i use them as utilitarian cutters and when i need precision i change out to a top quality insert .
You can pick up some amazing stuff on ebay for the right price if you know what you're looking for and do your homework !

 

[Jasonb]

Bottom of this page shows a few cuts I took at various feeds, speeds and DOC to show how the finish improves when the tip has to work

 

[Apprentice707]

I have bought carbide tips direct from China and the holders that go with them. They perform well for roughing and first cuts on castings, but I still use a well ground HSS for a good finish and accurate size. I have a Myford Super Seven with a quick change toolpost. I also have a Chinese made parting tool with carbide inserts which I find better than an expensive proprietary item, I use this in a rear toolpost.

Most of my small milling cutters come direct from China and perform well. Friends at my Model Engineering Club were skeptical at first, but now use the same cutters with praise. I have noted that the prices have increased dramatically lately, but the delivery times are still very good (No cost generally)

My final story concerning Chinese made goods involves a 6 jaw chuck.
I was in the USA and was idly browsing E Bay when I came across a new 5" 6 jaw SC chuck at a very good price. I ordered one at noon on a Monday to be delivered to my home in UK. No delivery time quoted so I thought 2 to 4 weeks. On the Tuesday evening caught a plane back to Blighty and arrived at my UK home at noon on the Wednesday. At 14.00 hrs that day a knock on the door and there stood a DPD delivery man with a large heavy box. It was my chuck. 50 hrs from order to receipt, it takes longer to get things from Birmingham with the Royal Mail. The chuck is now in use and a very good addition to my workshop.

Happy Engineering to all

 

[LSAGuy]

When I set up my shop I knew I was going to be cutting a lot of stainless so HS tools were out. I didn't want to get caught needing a bunch of different kinds of carbide inserts so I looked at what insert would serve for lathe and mill and settled on TPG type. I have one small boring bar that uses a CCMT type, and my threading tool uses two different types but they're interchangeable.
If you're using the TPG style inserts you might want to try the TPMR style inserts. They differ from the TPG in having a molded in relief that acts to shave the chip off. To save money the TPU type is a good general purpose type.
While all these insert types are meant to be used with a lot of coolant they do alright with a little cutting oil. In this environment I've not noticed any difference between cheap and expensive inserts except the impact on my wallet.

Rick

 

[rlukens]

I no longer associate "cheap" with China. One would be naive to think China can't produce quality. The truth is we Americans have an unsatiable appetite for there "cheap" stuff.

 

[XD351]

I have bought carbide tips direct from China and the holders that go with them. They perform well for roughing and first cuts on castings, but I still use a well ground HSS for a good finish and accurate size. I have a Myford Super Seven with a quick change toolpost. I also have a Chinese made parting tool with carbide inserts which I find better than an expensive proprietary item, I use this in a rear toolpost.

Most of my small milling cutters come direct from China and perform well. Friends at my Model Engineering Club were skeptical at first, but now use the same cutters with praise. I have noted that the prices have increased dramatically lately, but the delivery times are still very good (No cost generally)

My final story concerning Chinese made goods involves a 6 jaw chuck.
I was in the USA and was idly browsing E Bay when I came across a new 5" 6 jaw SC chuck at a very good price. I ordered one at noon on a Monday to be delivered to my home in UK. No delivery time quoted so I thought 2 to 4 weeks. On the Tuesday evening caught a plane back to Blighty and arrived at my UK home at noon on the Wednesday. At 14.00 hrs that day a knock on the door and there stood a DPD delivery man with a large heavy box. It was my chuck. 50 hrs from order to receipt, it takes longer to get things from Birmingham with the Royal Mail. The chuck is now in use and a very good addition to my workshop.

Happy Engineering to all

I have ordered some tool post and DRO units from china and they landed on my doorstep in Sydney inside 48hrs and ordered things from a seller in Sydney and it took two weeks !

 

[natalefr]

My experience about...
Carbide insert from china are good only for a few passes on the piece, they lose the cutting edge quickly, I use the old inserts for the roughing operations and a new one for the finishing operations, in all cases the quality is very low, nothing to do with the inserts and Sandwick tools

 

[goldstar31]

Are you correctly assessing 'grade for grade' between Sandwik and these Chinese inserts.

I rarely get excited about such trivial matters and almost extensively use his tooling but I appreciate that there are worthwhile blanks and stuff that is little better than masonry nails

Ca Va?

Norm

 

[natalefr]

Hi
Sometimes I used Sandwick in my job and I had long life of carbide insert even with a couple of millimeters thick, I do not currently have Sandwick inserts and tools because I use my hobby machines that are different from the machines I used at work and I notice that even with max 1mm passes in a short time (two or three passes) surface finish becomes wrinkled
Ca va merci

 

[goldstar31]

Respectfully, your evaluation of the two situations is somewhat suspect.

The other day, I got into trouble with looking at a ceiling and noted that the machining of acoustic tiles which were cut and grooved with carbide-- for which I had evaluated tests----- a long, long time ago.

Had I used the same tooling on a home workshop machine, the results would have been quite different.

I shrugged my shoulders in true Gallic form , whispered a French swear word and ---- deleted the entries.

Hoorah for a French sailing mistress!!!!!

Norm

 

[vederstein]

//RANT//

It doesn't matter what the subject is; take your pick:

• Cheap mills vs high quality mills.
• Cheap lathes vs high end lathes.
• Cutting tools
• QCTP
• Green Sand vs Petrobond
• Cheap hand tools vs. good hand tools
• Cheap measuring equipment vs Starrett, Mitutoyo, Brown & Shartp,etc.
• The proper way to do something vs working with what you've got.

Someone is always going to say that only the best and highest quality is acceptable. Others will say cheap itself is a quality in its own. I say cheap is fine as long as you understand its limitations.

Quite honestly, I'm sick of this conversation. It comes up time and time again; different subject, same conversation. Personally I have more admiration for those that create great work with substandard or limited tooling/setups than those that have the best of everything. On the other hand, if you have the best equipment, good for you, just don't expect other to have your luxuries.

This is a hobby that requires an initial investment of thousands of dollars to get tooled up minimally. I applaud anyone wanting to enter it.

//END RANT//

...Ved.

 

[DJP]

I'm of the school that old tools are all that I need. There are suppliers to the machining trade and their catalogues are good reading but the prices are intended for production shops where these costs can be passed along to the customer. That's not my case as machining is a hobby that is part of my DNA. I inherited tools from my father and father-in-law that I still use today. My newest machines were all well used in the 1970s before I bought them and I only added a coat of paint. In fact, the only machine that I bought new was a 300 amp stick welder and that was in 1980.

Mostly my source for tooling comes from estate sales where an old time machinist passed away. With the purchase I get a well used Kennedy box. The treasures are inside and they suit my needs. Even when I do purchase tooling it's the less expensive brands and if they break or get dull I sharpen them for reuse. One recent estate purchase included a collection of carbide inserts which I have mounted to steel holders for lathe cutters. They work well enough for my needs.

In another thread there was discussion of teaching grandkids metal working skills and I am doing the same but I have no illusions that they will have the same DNA requirement to make parts. But if they do, they will find my collection of carbide bit tooling when I'm gone which should get the job done.

For those who maligne Chinese products consider that most global manufacturers moved their facilities and expertise there to save labour costs only. I recently repaired an iPhone and was impressed at the skill that it must take to build and assemble a smart phone. The layers of circuit boards can be gently removed and replaced but it takes fine motor skills, tiny tools and magnifying glasses. The fact that these phones cost so little and are disposable amazes me.

So back to the topic of this thread. If you can afford high end tooling and it works well for you, great. But if not, look for estate sales as there are lots of old tools that will get the job done.

 

[goldstar31]

As a diversion, I identified a complete set of Quorn castings amongst what I later identified as from the Stent set and someone else traced to centers from Hemingwaykits.

I confess to getting 'broody' and found that the Quorn set were only £80 plus postage from Bonnie Scotland.

But I have a Quorn hiding in a mess of rust and remains after a disastrous death and winter.
Having a Quorn- and being able to use it, makes child's play of cutting metal- and this is where I came in-- and others should remember.

If one can cut metal accurately- that's it.

Then someone in my gang of old farts suggests another trip to the joys of HongKong---- and who the hell gets all knotted up about how much or how good their inserts are.

Norm

 

[Dubi]

I'm of the school that old tools are all that I need. There are suppliers to the machining trade and their catalogues are good reading but the prices are intended for production shops where these costs can be passed along to the customer. That's not my case as machining is a hobby that is part of my DNA. I inherited tools from my father and father-in-law that I still use today. My newest machines were all well used in the 1970s before I bought them and I only added a coat of paint. In fact, the only machine that I bought new was a 300 amp stick welder and that was in 1980.

Mostly my source for tooling comes from estate sales where an old time machinist passed away. With the purchase I get a well used Kennedy box. The treasures are inside and they suit my needs. Even when I do purchase tooling it's the less expensive brands and if they break or get dull I sharpen them for reuse. One recent estate purchase included a collection of carbide inserts which I have mounted to steel holders for lathe cutters. They work well enough for my needs.

In another thread there was discussion of teaching grandkids metal working skills and I am doing the same but I have no illusions that they will have the same DNA requirement to make parts. But if they do, they will find my collection of carbide bit tooling when I'm gone which should get the job done.

For those who maligne Chinese products consider that most global manufacturers moved their facilities and expertise there to save labour costs only. I recently repaired an iPhone and was impressed at the skill that it must take to build and assemble a smart phone. The layers of circuit boards can be gently removed and replaced but it takes fine motor skills, tiny tools and magnifying glasses. The fact that these phones cost so little and are disposable amazes me.

So back to the topic of this thread. If you can afford high end tooling and it works well for you, great. But if not, look for estate sales as there are lots of old tools that will get the job done.