Setting up Shop Questions - from an NZ learner

[goldstar31]

In this decision making, probably whatever it is should come with a face plate, a catch plate, centres, a three jaw, a four jaw and both steadies as swell as summat to hold lathe tools. QCTP is an accessory designed primarily for discussion groups and 'people who are incapable of cutting up drinks cans to make shims'. Once you have cut the shims, you glue the appropriate number under the lathe tool.
But you all do this as a matter of normal machining practice - clears throat and chuckles hysterically.

So in the real world, I'm sorted out with the sale of a Spanish house( when miracles happen and pigs fly) and have sorted out a trip to France and bought a new 'handy' suitable for dumb fingered old farts and told my son that I have spent £3.5K on a pair of hearing aids to avoid me continuing as Quasimodo for the rest of my natural puff.

All go at the Norman castle

 

[Wizard69]

Thanks Murray. While I love the look of the 336 I think dang near 600kg of iron for a first late is probably a little extreme. The 280kg for the 320G is having me think hard about how to manoeuvre it.

It depends of course upon what you want to do but in my case buying based on weight was a bad thing to do. Low weight puts real limits on the machines physical size and mass itself comes in handy in a lot of turning situations. If you can say for certainty that you can get by with a lathe of X x XX size then a light machine might be a good choice. Otherwise You may be better off considering hiring the help required to move a bigger lathe into position.

I suspect that almost everyone has run into a situation where a larger lathe would make possible an operation or at least make it easier to deal with. There is no ultimate lathe size and frankly for some people a lathe can easily be too big. As I've said I've seen some amazing things done on Sherline and Taig lathes at model engineering meets.

I will look to hook up with Bruce at some point in the new week or so since he's so close to home. I'm quite keen to have a look at his CNC mill. Having built an extrusion 3D Printer (Prusa2 model) and little CNC PCB isolation mill I'm quite interested in that space.

CNC is really cool tech now that it is affordable with multiple ways to implement. For somebody starting out, especially with a mill, it can actually save you some money in hardware purchases or builds. Things like rotary tables are no longer needed or at least the need is greatly reduced. The only real problem is that you need to develop the programming and design skills to derive the G-Code.

Oh, enjoyed the video on Wednesday. That chap had just WAAY to much spare time. 3.5 years 7 days a week on your hobby sheesh!! No wonder they achieved so much detail. And the hand rails, don't forget the hand rails! :big:

Cheers,
James.

Hey still working for a living here and frankly it sucks! I long for the day when there are no mortgage payments and one can actually be relaxed and not burned out in his shop.

 

[Wizard69]

Actually James, you are quite correct in querying whether it has a t-slotted slide.

For between centre boring, it really is a must, and because mine doesn't have one, it has stopped me machining a large cylinder casting for a while now. I can do it on my mill, but it means using a boring bar held at one end and it is almost 12" long, using my right angled head. Not a solution that guarantees success.

For something like this you should consider a boring bar support at the other end. Obviously it can't be a center like you would use in a lathe but rather a bushing that the bar can slide through. At 12" long such a setup might be more stable than trying to setup a between centers bore on a small lathe.

But all is not lost.
Myself, I am fitting a cast iron removable slotted table to the top of my cross slide for when it is really needed. They are readily available at very reasonable costs, just need modding to fit your particular machine, or maybe there is enough meat on your cross slide to machine in some small t-slots. But you must be careful that you can still reach centre on the job with the extra thickness of the sub table.

John

 

[bruedney]

Pray tell me Bruce,
How would you go about boring the cylinder on this little job?
It is no use quoting that you have never needed T-slots, most probably because what you have already done on your lathe are fiddly little jobs compared to this one.
It is when something out of the ordinary comes along that makes you think outside of the box, and ways to get around it.
For the cost of these mods, it isn't worth waiting around until a Sunday, when everywhere is closed, you try to get your machine prepared for all and sundry.

That is why, over the years, I have been doing all sorts of usually low cost mods to my machinery, it will allow me to either do my machining better, faster or more accurately, allowing me to carry out jobs on my machine that it wasn't supposed to be capable of doing in the first place.

The cylinder casting is over 8" long.

I am one of the lucky ones who has a right angle head for my mill, so can use items such as a long boring bar in a horizontal orientation, but it isn't an ideal situation because of boring bar deflection, even in this size.

Or how do I bore this complicated casting I had made to fit around the above cylinder? You can't just wack it into your 4 jaw and hope for the best, you would most probably end up with a big 'B' in the middle of your forehead.

Now that is where a T-slotted cross slide comes into it's own. If you have a bed long enough, boring between centres has been around for well over 100 years, maybe 200. A well tried and trusted method.

Buying any machine tool is a compromise, it will never have everything you want included in it's specs. So you have to look at ways of overcoming those limitations, and in both James' and my situation, a T-slotted top plate should solve the problem, if there are no further complications. That is why I have bought two different top plates for mine, to allow me to choose whichever one suits the job the best. Smaller t-slots in a thinner plate to hold fairly lightweight items or to overcome height problems, or a heavyweight plate for those muscle bound needs.

John

John,

I did not say that it wasn't necessary for some jobs but having spoken to James at our club last week about what he hoped to build I did not feel that a T-Slotted cross slide was a "necessity" but rather a "nice feature if you can get it" at this point in his setting up.

Given that at least two of our club members have the AL 336 lathes (bigger than the AL 320) and they have both built some pretty reasonable sized engines/ Locos without the T Slots, I think James' direction towards the AL320 is well calculated and will work well for his situation.

Bruce

 

[joco-nz]

Just a few observations from somebody who went through the same agonising decision making process.

If you want T slots. get the CQ6128 in your shortlist in the first post. I considered it but decided support would be suspect. Its smaller than the AL320G.
Hare and Forbes sell a vertical milling slide which you could probably fit to the AL320G. I thought about this but bought the mill instead. It's pretty small.
Don't forget that the AL320G also comes with a faceplate and I've seen a Youtube video of a guy boring a 500cc motor bike motor on a similar sized lathe using a fixture he made to hold the cylinder on the faceplate.

The BXA QCTP starter kit I have fitted to my lathe comes with a 25mm boring bar holder that will easily hold a boring bar long enough to bore 8" without worrying about deflection. The one I purchased for this holder only gives me about 7" but longer ones are available. If I wanted to go longer, I'd just grab a piece of 25mm ground bar and make my own. This is a project I've considered so I can bore out the spindle to a true 38mm as its a bit undersize in the centre (like most of the Chinese lathes).

I think it would be possible to make a tslot holder fairly easily and attach it to the cross slide without interfering with the toolpost. I'd probably use cast iron and ensure it also did away with the tinfoil cover at the rear of the cross slide. But you probably need a mill to make it....

I will say that the decision making process became a lot easier once I decided to buy a mill at the same time instead of later.

Thanks Rod. I'm just looking at options and considering what I would do if I need to delay the Mill purchase. I'm not too inclined to compromise on my lathe choice just because its not got t-slots. As has been noted no lathe is perfect. So I'm just thinking through options/ideas and using the group as a sounding board. Heck, if I was going to "compromise" on the current lathe preference I'd probably compromise UP. I'm sure an AL-336 or AL-960B would look awesome in the garage. :thumbup:

 

[joco-nz]

In this decision making, probably whatever it is should come with a face plate, a catch plate, centres, a three jaw, a four jaw and both steadies as swell as summat to hold lathe tools.

Agree, I'm definitely mindful of getting a useful set of standard accessories. Although I don't tend to see a catch-plate in the mix. I think the expectation is that you sort out something to deal with that on the face-plate.

So in the real world, I'm sorted out with the sale of a Spanish house( when miracles happen and pigs fly) and have sorted out a trip to France and bought a new 'handy' suitable for dumb fingered old farts and told my son that I have spent £3.5K on a pair of hearing aids to avoid me continuing as Quasimodo for the rest of my natural puff.

All go at the Norman castle

Good to hear things are going "well" on the home front. :thumbup:

 

[joco-nz]

It depends of course upon what you want to do but in my case buying based on weight was a bad thing to do. Low weight puts real limits on the machines physical size and mass itself comes in handy in a lot of turning situations. If you can say for certainty that you can get by with a lathe of X x XX size then a light machine might be a good choice. Otherwise You may be better off considering hiring the help required to move a bigger lathe into position.

I suspect that almost everyone has run into a situation where a larger lathe would make possible an operation or at least make it easier to deal with. There is no ultimate lathe size and frankly for some people a lathe can easily be too big. As I've said I've seen some amazing things done on Sherline and Taig lathes at model engineering meets.

I think the 320G will do the business for what I want to get into as well as support a few half formed ideas re building a go-kart. It's swing is basically the same as the 336, although with the bed gap in use the 336 can go bigger.

CNC is really cool tech now that it is affordable with multiple ways to implement. For somebody starting out, especially with a mill, it can actually save you some money in hardware purchases or builds. Things like rotary tables are no longer needed or at least the need is greatly reduced. The only real problem is that you need to develop the programming and design skills to derive the G-Code.

The CNC side doesn't worry to much as have had to deal with those challenges on the 3d-printer and the CNC pcb mill. I've done enough coding for hobby and work reasons over the years to be comfortable.

Cheers,
James.

 

[joco-nz]

Okay, did some "proper" thinking today about garage layout and knocked up this general plan of the garage. It should give you all a guide as to how much space I have to work with for lathe and mill foot print. And I need to get my dewalt table saw in there as well. But since that's portable with its own wheeled stand that's much easier to deal with.


So, the initial plans, I'll start to layout lathes etc on this but as you can see I have about 10msq in a 5x2 strip.


Cheers,
James.

 

[Blogwitch]

All I could suggest James, after I was confronted with the same problems, look to the walls.

Get as many shelves and racks in there as you can and lay things out logically.
Put everything for the lathe within easy reach of the lathe, later, when maybe you have a mill, do exactly the same thing. Create machine zones, each with it's own area, just enough to comfortably work in.

Similar to this, bits for the headstock end on the wall around the headstock, chucks underneath, and tailstock bits behind the tailstock, and general lathe stuff on a shelf above.
Little would you believe it, the 'white box' is my assembly 'clean' area, but if larger areas are needed, I have a plans draw that slides away when not in use, with enough room above it to take small components laid out on the plans.

John

 

[Blogwitch]

Bruce,

If you look at my text, I didn't say the lathe NEEDED to have a T-slotted table, and if it didn't have one, there are ways and means by which one could be fitted.

It was your statement that you didn't ever need one that caused me to reply.

After over half a century in this game, I know there are means and ways to hold larger items on a lathe, but one of the easiest and safest methods is to use T-slots.

I have bored out large wooden formers to fit on top of the cross slide before now, and cobbled together an unsafe temporary holding fixture, just to get the job done, and that is where I now draw the line.
After seeing what has happened around me, I won't go 'unsafe' any more, and don't condone anyone else doing the same thing if they mean to be showing it on a site such as this. It is like showing inexperienced people how to commit suicide by using their machines.

John

 

[joco-nz]

All I could suggest James, after I was confronted with the same problems, look to the walls.

Get as many shelves and racks in there as you can and lay things out logically.
Put everything for the lathe within easy reach of the lathe, later, when maybe you have a mill, do exactly the same thing. Create machine zones, each with it's own area, just enough to comfortably work in.

John

John - that's the plan. I have moved a lot of low usage tools or woodworking tools to the wall on the opposite side of the garage to the bench. The reason being when I am doing woodwork the car is in the driveway, I have the tablesaw setup and I'm working over that side (mostly).

I'm planning to make stands for the lathe and mill which have integrated tool chests (see stand image earlier in thread) in them so that key tools are located right by the appropriate tool. I'll also have tooling on peg-board above the bench. Along with part draws that are hung on the wall.
http://nz.element14.com/raaco/126762/cabinet-organiser-44compartment/dp/1367091

Cheers,
James.

 

[Blogwitch]

Very nice James.

I have about a dozen of those small parts draws, but they do have a down side.
Because of the small gap above the draw, it is an entry point for swarf and other debris. Keep them well away from your machines.
If I don't go into a draw for a while, the ones closest to my machines, I have to sort through debris before I get down to whatever is in the slide drawer.

I have tried all sorts of new systems, all to no avail, they still get filled up with swarf. Just get used to cleaning them out every so often. The only other way would be to hang a sheet of polythene in front of them. I even tried that, but it stops you getting into the drawers easily.

Have fun

John

 

[joco-nz]

Possible Lathe and Mill placement. Assuming a Lathe table of 800mm x 1700mm and Mill table of 800mm x 800mm with a 1200mm walking distance between equipment and workbench. Machines could be pushed a little more towards the car zone to increase walking clearance.

 

[bruedney]

Lighting - don't forget lighting

:thumbup:

Bruce

 

[joco-nz]

Lighting - don't forget lighting

:thumbup:

Bruce

Yup - have dual 1200mm fluorescent fixtures. One centre of car zone, one directly over lathe position, one over workbench. Will be adding more over length of workbench as well as getting led or halogen flexible neck work area lights to add to lathe and mill. That should fix the frequency issue on the fluorescent tubes for rotating parts.

I also have electrical points wired to the ceiling between lathe/mill and at other end of lathe (referenced from insert below) as well as at 4 positions along the length the workbench. The Lathe and Mill have access to a 15 amp circuit and there is a 15 amp circuit on two of the four bench located points. The 15amp circuits are to provide flexibility of where I connect my welder. A nice little BOC Multiprocess unit (MIG/MAG, DC TIG, DC Stick) http://www.boc.co.nz/shop/en/nz/boc-smootharc-multiprocess-175-welder


Alternative layout that brings the machines closer to one of the dual 15amp sockets in the ceiling.

 

[rodw]

You have more space than me. I've only got a total of 2.4 x 4.8 including all the shelves and benches. Being prepared to spend a bit on storage is the key to making it work in a small space. I spent about $1500 on storage, some of which was in my garden shed to make sure my shed was 100% man cave.

Also consider where your bandsaw will go.

I have this one. Nice little saw.
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/B003

And the mill table travels over it on a custom stand.

After I wore out the smaller bs4. I really wanted this one

https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/B006

You can fit it in.... place it so material can go accross your wifes car for those long jobs you get once in a while.

 

[rodw]

In this decision making, probably whatever it is should come with a face plate, a catch plate, centres, a three jaw, a four jaw and both steadies as swell as summat to hold lathe tools. QCTP is an accessory designed primarily for discussion groups and 'people who are incapable of cutting up drinks cans to make shims'. Once you have cut the shims, you glue the appropriate number under the lathe tool.

All go at the Norman castle

I tend to agree and wonder if all the hype on the QCTP is worth it. It is certainly very quick with multiple tools at your fingertips. The glue is a good idea. I knew I did something wrong after I managed to empty and cut up the beer cans.... hacksaw blades and old bandsaw blades are also handy. Then the QCTP turned up....

 

[goldstar31]

Yesterday I discovered the offer for sale of a 6 station capstan attachment which the seller had no idea of whether it was from a Myford or not. The price was 'advantageous' as the French say. Whether it becomes mine is anyone's guess but it prompted us to discuss QCTP's. For my sins, I have two. Both fit the Super 7 but both are an 1/8th 'out' for the smaller ML10. As Cousin Rowan- Mr Bean would say- Bugger! Both are hardened and getting an 1/8th off is just that. We both have been- about a bit. He lived next door to Rowan when Rowan ran around in his Mum's Morris Minor. QCTP's can be a bit 'wobbly'
In local parlance, they rattle around like a pea on a drum!
Baz's efforts in making several 3 way things follows the designer- the late David Lammas- to have quoted:-
Less danger of accidental injury
Fewer tool shapes do more work
Fouling of workpieces does not occur
Fast interchange of tools
Cheap to use because the simple casting can be machined on the lathe from which it will be used
Because it is cheap, we can afford more than one tool post
- and so on.
If minded, I can litter the workshop with the things because I have a huge chunk of Meehanite which was a rusty marking out table- that cost £3.

But dear old and much lamented Jack Radford toiling his way in Kiwi land thought little of even rigidity of top slides and invented a new casting -to simply dispense with the top slide for most times -apart from screwcutting on an Ash Wednesday.
Cleeve was simpler still and with 4 bits of flat plate made front turrets by bolting them together. The rear turret is made from 3. I've still got it and it fits the Super7. Because there is 'room', it will fit the smaller ML10. It fitted a subtable on a 918- just like that.
What is cheaper and easier?

My thoughts are- Think again! I did- when? Too old to remember but that's life

Norman

 

[Wizard69]

Yup - have dual 1200mm fluorescent fixtures. One centre of car zone, one directly over lathe position, one over workbench. Will be adding more over length of workbench as well as getting led or halogen flexible neck work area lights to add to lathe and mill. That should fix the frequency issue on the fluorescent tubes for rotating parts.

I also have electrical points wired to the ceiling between lathe/mill and at other end of lathe (referenced from insert below) as well as at 4 positions along the length the workbench. The Lathe and Mill have access to a 15 amp circuit and there is a 15 amp circuit on two of the four bench located points. The 15amp circuits are to provide flexibility of where I connect my welder. A nice little BOC Multiprocess unit (MIG/MAG, DC TIG, DC Stick) http://www.boc.co.nz/shop/en/nz/boc-smootharc-multiprocess-175-welder
View attachment 83616

Alternative layout that brings the machines closer to one of the dual 15amp sockets in the ceiling.
View attachment 83615

That layout has me thinking that the lathes will eventually be hit by the car to be parked in the garage. At least it looks that way, I'm not sure what the relative width is with respect to the car going into the parking position. It would be a concern for me, Opening the doors on the car can't be an issue either.

Working in a tight space is never easy but I might consider light weight benches on wheel to be located along side the car park area. This for a couple of reasons, I prefer big heavy tools to be mounted on heavy benches ideally semi permanent. Second being free to move a work bench around solves access issues if you happen to get involved in non model engineering uses of the bench. Say for example house repairs, a bench with a clear top and 360° access comes in handy for window and acre repairs. Actually useful for larger assemblies of any type.

In short I'd avoid position a lathe in such a way that it says hit me!

 

[Wizard69]

I tend to agree and wonder if all the hype on the QCTP is worth it. It is certainly very quick with multiple tools at your fingertips. The glue is a good idea. I knew I did something wrong after I managed to empty and cut up the beer cans.... hacksaw blades and old bandsaw blades are also handy. Then the QCTP turned up....

QCTP are very nice to have, however they are an additional expense to get yourself started. Personally I hate shimming tools, it is a big distraction and fiddly at best. Long term though a QCTP is a big convenience which is why there are so many DIY approaches and commercial offerings. There are probably a 100 different designs for QCTP floating around the model model engineering world as people come up with their own solutions or variants on others.

Personally if I was to do a QCTP I'd either buy or make a unit compatible with a commercial offering. Eventually you will find yourself at an auction where one or more of those tool holders will be in a box of junk that goes for a song. I've bought almost all of my high speed tooling this way, often unexpectedly as my bidding was focused on other content in the box. I probably have more high speed steel cutters than I will ever use at this point.

In any event I digress here. A QCTP is a very useful upgrade. This especially on old lathes with lantern type tool holders. It is not however a required upgrade. The big advantage you get with QCTP is the specialized tool holders that allow you to hold boring bars and cut off tools without the drama of getting everything in position again. This is especially useful for tool holders that hold cut off blades at an angle. Setting up center height after adjusting stick out is a breeze.